Hot basement, no heat upstairss -

Bill_120

We replaced the original boiler ( 1930s ) with a Dunkirk PSB5D a few years ago . Single pipe, natural gas system . The installer also installed a Sterling water box, and auto fill system as well as steam traps on the ends of the two loops before water returns to box. He removes the Steam vents which were in previous system near this location. Previous system worked fine , just parts died and N/A .



Symptoms:- Pump to boiler runs for long periods of time , and cycles several times in a short period . Sight glass surges, to top , to bottom and has run over the outside of glass . The basement is quite warm, but little heat goes to house . When pump comes on, one can hear air escaping vents on radiator . Float for tank fill was replaced, float to trigger pump was replaced , water conditioner added . Boiler skimmed several times .



Any suggestions ? What additional info would be valuable . We are very frustrated .



Thank you

crash2009

Go get your camera Bill

and post some pictures here for the guys to see.  They will let you know what you gotta do to make it work.  All 4 sides of the boiler and what it hooks up to in the ceiling. 

Bill_120

Some pics

Please find pics from several angles . Please let me know what other info I can offer . As an aside, last year we even had water come out of the water box over flow. Does this help give a better perspective ?

Thanks

BobC

Did it ever work?

Has the system ever worked well since the new boiler and Sterling "water box' was installed?



I'm not an expert on something setup like this but the configuration looks strange to me. I don't see an equalizer (could cause surging) or a Hartford loop. Single pipe steam is inherently simple as long as you have adequate venting and the near boiler piping is correct. Do any of the radiators heat fully?



Do you think the installer was experienced in installing steam or did he have to implement several fixes to get it working to some extent. Finding experienced steam pro's is not easy. You might want to check the Find a Contractor heading to see if there is a pro in your area.



As I said I'm no expert on this type of setup, hopefully somebody more experienced will clear all this up for you.



Bob

Bill_120

more feedback

The installer was/is geared to commercial applications , however, he was the only one, at the time, who even made any sense in his discussions before we purchased this . He has been very decent about working on it, but ... it is still not right . We get some heat in the radiators closest to the boiler in each loop . The part I do not understand, is the water return . This setup has the end of the loop coming back through the steam traps, then in to the water box . The water box then pumps water to the boiler . Nothing goes directly to the boiler. He used the water box, he said, because the old boiler water volume was such that we needed the additional capacity . This supports a total of 9 radiators , the old cast iron type . I can give the dims if that is of use . One other side note, the boiler/water box gurgles quite a bit and there is some clanging, not too loud , in the pipes.



You reference venting and equalizer . I am unfamiliar with how that would work. Please explain . Do the steam traps provide any of this functionality ? I could draw a basic diagram of the system with features labled , if that would assist .



Thanks

Jamie Hall

There must have been

a harder way to do this, but I can't think what it might have been at the moment.



That near boiler piping is almost guaranteed to not work; sorry about that.  From the photos I see a riser going up to a horizontal section which, at a stretch, might be called a header.  From there I see a vertical going up to two pipes which might be called steam mains.  OK.  At the end of the "header" there should be a pipe going back down to the boiler cold water return.  That's the equalizer (which you don't have) which is absolutely needed.  Not only does it serve to equalize pressures -- hence the name -- but perhaps more important it allows any water separated from the steam in the header to return to the boiler.  Then the actual return line should T into that equalizer just below the water line of the boiler, and then go back down to the floor or thereabouts, using a short nipple.  That would make what is called a Hartford Loop.  It's function is to prevent emptying the boiler in the event of a leak in the returns.



OK.  Then out in the system, each main should have at its end either a crossover trap going into an associated dry return or a main vent of its own.  Now it is not clear to me whether the returns are at a high level, hence "dry", or at a low level (below the water line), hence "wet".  If they are at a high level, and drain towards the boiler then drop to near floor level, that's fine and you can use the crossover trap arrangement -- although it is uncommon on one pipe -- with main vents located where it drops down.  If it's wet, then you have to have main vents at the ends of the risers.



In any event, eventually the return drops below water level in the boiler -- and then there is no reason, on a residential system running at normal pressures -- why it can't go right back into the boiler through the Hartford Loop.  No pumps, no tanks, no muss, no fuss.



The fact that you have, apparently, separate returns suggests that this is a parallel flow system -- that is, the mains pitch away from the boiler, and the condensate flows the same way and is picked up by the returns to go back to the boiler.  With that setup, you use the main vents at the ends of returns.  The return must be below the main, and either be wet (preferable, in my book) or if it is dry, pitched towards the boiler -- and if it is dry, you do need traps, but they must be low enough so that the water in the main can drain through to the return.  You'd use F&T's, not regular radiator traps.



You don't need the tank for extra water volume.  In fact, you don't need the tank and pump at all.



I suggest that you buy (they're cheap) Dan's books ("A Steamy Deal") and both you and your installer thoroughly familiarize yourselves with them and how steam is supposed to work -- and thoroughly familiarize yourselves with the manufacturer's piping diagram for the boiler.  Then set about repiping things; you have a fair amount of work to do here.

BobC

Installation diagram

This should be the installation manual for your boiler (check to make sure your specific boiler is listed), pages 5 and six are the factory recommended near boiler piping. That boiler should have two steam outlets and both should be used to ensure proper operation.



If your installer has questions he should post them on this forum, I'm sure many pro's will be willing to help him get the configuration correct. I'm only a homeowner who maintains his own steam system but a lot of the guys do it for a living.



good luck,



Bob

Bill_120

thank you -

Thank you for your detailed explanation . I need to review this and digest your suggestions I really appreciate this information . I could not understand why it seemed so complicated compared to the system which had run for over 70 years .



thank you again , I will probably be back after I go through your thoughts.

Bill

Bill_120

thank you

Thank you for the link . I am going to sit down and draw/measure out the existing piping and try to correlate what is there, with both Jamie's recommendations as well as the drawing from Dunkirk . I at least will then have a baseline from which to proceed as well as solicit suggestions for the simplest corrections .



Thank you

Bill

crash2009

Some examples

Now that you have some opinions of what is missing, here is a photo that has all those parts that you dont have.  Its not exactly the same as yours but its close.  From what I have seen of yours you would have 2 system risers going up to your mains, the first photo only has 1.  I am just a homeowner, just like you, and something similar to this photo is how I would expect my boiler to be installed. The second photo has 2 system risers.  If you look around here at heating help you will find other examples.

TomM

"CSI Steam System"

I would assume that since there was no equalizer, large amounts of water were going into the header/main, and that's why he put a condensate tank on it.

-

He used the water box, he said, because the old boiler water volume was such that we needed the additional capacity

jpf321

the boiler is suppose...

to be sized to hold the water necessary to fill your pipes/rads with steam .. you shouldn't need any "extra holding" tank for water .. the old boiler had more water because that's how they made em back them. but that doesn't mean your system requires as much water as the old one.. how many square feet of radiation do you have installed and what is the boiler rated for in terms of SQ FT of STEAM?



now several people pointed out that perhaps the box is there because your piping is a bit screwy, this is a valid idea, however, to need a water box because you need more water, at this size, is not a valid idea.

TomM

bump

bumped- (i'd like to see what the head honchos' opinions are)

Steamhead

Wow

talk about overkill.



The water box is a "boiler-feed pump" which is totally unnecessary on a residential system. It, and the two float-and-thermostatic traps on the returns, add needless moving parts to your system which will need maintenance in the years to come.



This setup is common on higher-pressure commercial systems, but is not needed on something like this where the water can return by gravity.



The steam pipe coming out of the boiler is certainly large enough, but needs a drain (the "equalizer") to catch any water coming up from the boiler and return it. With the boiler-feed pump and traps gone, the returns would go into a Hartford Loop which ties into the equalizer.



The second pic in Crash's post is one of my installs. You can see how the pipes come together in that one.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I agree with Steamhead

The tank and traps are almost never necessary and whenever I see this type of setup, I undo the additions and put the system back to gravity return and repipe the boiler supply piping properly. The system will work better and have very little to repair or maintain.

Bill_120

minor progress

My thanks to all who have commented . It was frustrating to find my suspicions of poor installation were correct, but with knowledge comes power . This will NEVER happen again . I have ordered Dans book set , and anticipate its arrival after the holiday . In the meantime, I have contacted Dunkirk, who referred me to a major distributor in my area . I am in hopes for a referral to a competent boiler installer who can fix this thing . Prior to any work being done , though, I will ask for a plan/SOW ( statement of work) which I will post for comments from this sage assembly . With that, and the knowledge I hope to gain from the books , I am cautiously hopeful that I can apply the BS filter to what ever is proposed and get someone competent who will get this working correctly .



Again my thanks, I will be back. You have all been most helpful .

crash2009

Where

are you Bill.  Have you checked out the "find a contractor section" here on the website? 

Bill_120

find a contractor

I tried that, none nearby , and regarding the only one even within 100 miles, Neither of two phone lines answered . Tried the next day, Finally got VM, left a message to call back, it's been two days , no response . So tried the mfg, Dunkirk . Who referred me to disty. I am hoping, that ,with what you all have imparted, and what I learn from Dan's books, as well as your comments to what ever proposal I get, I will be able to qualify whoever actually wants to work . In this area, tradesmen are very hard to find , and very picky as to the job they decide to take . And that is ignoring whether they are competent or not . I just finished working on the roof of my office building, because , out of 6 calls, 3 actually responded, 2 showed up for a quote , and one actually finished and submitted one . The other, after 3 weeks,and 3 reminder calls to him, told me he could not get to it for a while . I do not contract without a written contract . For both me and the contractor .



Please excuse the rant. , It has just been a sore point . I know there are some very capable , honest folks out there , our experiences have just not been good . I am showing my frustrations .

Apologies .



Bill

Steamhead

But

where are you located? 

Bill_120

Location

Located in south central WI . Waterloo . BTW, I did receive a call back from one of the contractors listed . Had a long discussion re possible approaches . Several issues are raised which I need to resolve . 1) Cost of "reinstall" of current boiler , ( the re-piping) , I was advised approx 32 hrs of work . , 2) having unit offline for 4 days in the winter in WI . 3) Having 'local" help available should it go down . 4) Improving my knowledge to be able to judge if what I am being told is correct . 5) Possible pro tem meassures to get us through the winter . These are the items which I need to address thus far. Today I am in process of going through all manuals and mentally doing a "paper/virtual install , to see if I can figure out exactly what was done . From my recent discussion with the referral from your site, I did find that the Sterling water box, does have two hex headed fitments , which I am assuming to be check valve and throttling valve .One has a lot of newer thread showing . I would guess that to be the throttle , but hope to confirm from documentation . It was conjectured that perhaps the throttle was too open and too much water was being delivered to the boiler in a bolus, causing more surging. Also, the possibility of a faulty check valve . Perhaps , some minor corrections, can get us through the winter . Will be back once I learn more and have more definitive questions.



Thank you, Happy Thanksgiving to all



Bill

nicholas bonham-carter

time for repiping

i can't believe that your boiler will be down for 4 days. some of the remedial piping could be done before shutting down the boiler. the second riser could be assembled on the boiler with a stop valve, and connected when done.

as for spending any time making the sterling condensate pump work, that would be a waste of time, and money. pipe around it, so it is no longer a part of the system, and can be sold on ebay.--nbc

ttekushan_3

In addition to what everyone else said

be careful of how much of that 8-way boiler water treatment you put in a Dunkirk boiler. Due to their narrow sections and low water content, they are on the verge of producing wet steam to begin with. Add some water treatment and you will have very "wet" steam.



Furthermore, as others have pointed out, there is no equalizer/steam drying ability present in your set-up at all. The I-O manual shows this clearly. You need that drained header no matter what --even if you use a boiler feed pump. In large steam heating applications, an equalizer is typical, but if not, then you will find a well drained and trapped header. You must have a way to dry the steam and it's as simple as that.



Wet steam causes tremendous loss of efficiency and heat distribution trouble due to the fact that a steam heating system heats with latent heat and not hot water droplets!



Don't get me wrong about the 8-Way. I use it myself, but you have to be careful.



---



What I see in your installation is a collection of expensive and relatively high maintenance equipment and a giant glaring omission. And that strainer piped in after the steam traps strikes me as . . . odd.

Bill_120

Beginning analysis of system

Just received Dan's Books , At first scan, looks to have much info of value . I have my reading tasks for this evening. My approach to resolve this is to assess each major part of the system for correctness in its own right , then as it applies to the whole system . I am beginning with confirmation of the size of boiler . The local disty for Dunkirk, to whom I was referred, had me fill out a sizing chart for this application . I would add that this boiler is the main heat for the house, but there is a large family room , at a lower level which has electric baseboard heat ( ouch !!) . It opens into the main house through a large opening, ( like a sliding glass door only not closed .)



The total sq feet of radiation, I have calculated at 391.5 sq ft . The boiler is rated at

150,000 input, and 122000 output , The net I=B=R rating is 92000, and net radiation is 383 . ( Natural Gas) . If 1 sq ft of radiation = 240 Net BTUH my requirements would then be 93960 ( 391.5 x 240). I realize this is more than the NET output specs but it is only about 2.1% low . Could this still be adequate, if it were running properly ?



I am also checking the BlowDown mechanism location . I was advised that perhaps it is misplaced . i.e. by virtue of the elbow, it is located too high above the low water line . See picture . The manuals I have seen would seem to advise placement AT, not above the bottom of the sight glass . The float on this was replace once already . Is this a potential issue ?



We already know the piping is incorrect and lacking, so that is my next issue to formulate an action , IF this boiler can heat our house. ( I really do not want to buy another boiler $$$)



Your thoughts ?



Thank you

Bill

BobC

Boiler size?

That boiler should be able to heat the house without much worry and it should do it economically once the piping is straightened out. If the house has any insulation whatsoever the 2% difference is negligible.



It's a shame it wasn't sized with the family room included, a hot water takeoff with baseboard would have been a lot cheaper to run. 



All the piping in the basement should be insulated with a minimum of 1" pipe insulation.

After the piping is redone make sure the boiler gets flushed and skimmed after running a couple of days.



As to the LWCO location I can't really see why the T couln't be rotated to eliminate the elbow and get it to the correct height. Since your going to have people repiping I'd just add that to the list of things to do.



Bob

crash2009

rotate the entire boiler 1/4 turn

Not sure if you thought about this one but would it be easier to plan if you were to rotate the entire boiler 1/4 turn clockwise, and move it back towards the chimney?  I think this would line you up more square to your mains and returns.  Then, pipe everything to the new location. I think I was playing around with a sketch, I'll see if I can find it.  Found it.

jpf321

that BlowDown mechanism ....

is actually your Low Water Cut-Off (LWCO) and it is indeed incorrectly installed. here is the install manual for the MM #67 LWCO (which I believe you have) http://www.bellgossett.com/literature/files/1427.pdf .. there is a line on the black part (perhaps with an arrow at each end) .. this line should be at the "minimum safe water line of boiler" as determined by dunkirk. Technically the MM67 manual says AT OR ABOVE .. but I have never seen one mounted that far above .. mounting ... your Dunkirk manual should also have a measurement for NWL (normal water line) you should not be filled above NWL.



Overfilling will: 1) create wet steam and 2) limit the size of your steam chest and 3) take longer to heat the water in the boiler (since there is more of it)

Bill_120

A contractors response

I have received some reply from a the disty, his brother does Steam, he says. I sent the information above , which gave approx a 2% undersize for our boiler he replied : " We should be able to increase the manifold

pressure within 10% to cover the small shortage if you have figured the

radiators properly. " Now, is he saying they would increase the pressure on the system , or is this something else ? I am part way through Dan's book and I gather that increasing pressure is counterproductive . Water under pressure boils at a higher temp, so it would take more energy to create steam . And steam is what we want . Is this guy a "knucklehead" , or am I not understanding ? He also recommended that we replace the McDonnel LWC with a probe type . I would think this would require more difficult maintanence . To what advantage ? Please advise .



Thanks

Bill

jpf321

probe type = less maintenance

but not NO maintenance...you need to pull it from the boiler annually to make sure it's clean. in general, a probe type is considered a safer bet since it doesn't rust up, clog and get stuck. many people prefer both belts and suspenders and will have both float and probe installed for safety backup.

Bill_120

Your comments please- SOW

I believe I have a reasonable idea of at least some of the problems with my system, thanks to all of your comments and Dan's books .( Very informative .) I am now trying to find a contractor to rework this . I come from the electronics and system integration industry, and when we work on a job the first thing done is a SOW . ( Statement of work ) This defines scope and expectations but allows for change if mutually agreed . Goal is to protect both parties . The document I created is below . Would an approach like this likely be accepted by heating contractors ? I am only trying to avoid a repeat of my last fiasco . Your comments please . Am I out in left field ? Suggestions ? Have I missed any technical aspects of the system you folks had suggested ?

crash2009

SOW

no offence Bill, but I think you paint yourself into a corner in a couple spots within the SOW.  To begin with the house piping is in need of an upgrade.  Originally those pipes likely were built for coal.  You are running gas now so a couple changes are nescesary to optimise the work you are about to undertake. 



1-The first thing is the main vent.  You will need 3-5 on each side, yes three to five, depending on how many lineal feet of main you have.  They need to be 15" before the drop down to the wet return.  Here is how they do it http://www.heatinghelp.com/images/posts/4848/resize_MAINVENT_ANTLER.jpg



2-Secondly, up in the ceiling where those 2 mains come down to a Y, (thats another coal thing) That Y needs to be broken up forming 2 separate mains.  If I think of anything else I will add it here.



3-Shut off (king valves) They sure make things easier for maintenence.  Here is the link to the video. Now is the time to think about it.   http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

4-The drop header further helps to dry the steam.  It also aids in assembly to get the slope correct.  The drop header exceeds manufacturers specs.   http://www.heatinghelp.com/search/results/drop-header/1

5-Insulation is a good thing, here are 2 examples, do it yourself and professional, can and should be done later http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132995/What-type-of-pipe-insulation-should-be-used-on-the-near-boiler-piping#p1206961

Bill_120

Thank you !

I had not thought about the differences with coal and gas . Read through Dan's sections on that last night . Perfectly logical . I should not have overlooked it . Thank you . One question re the drop header . If I understand correctly, the riser should be 24" above the boiler body for optimal performance . ( keep water in boiler, not wet steam ) . Is there a critical height for the horizontal pipe which ties the risers together ?



Those links were great . Many thanks ! . It helped me visualize the approach much better . Steam is an analog engineering issue ,not digital .



Would it be reasonable to include the suggestions you list in my corrected SOW ? I assume you are a heating contractor , how would you react to my SOW ? Would you be likely to accept bidding on this job ? Don't want to scare folks off, just want it to work . Thank you again, your comments have been most enlightening .



Bill

crash2009

How much drop should a drop header have?

You might have to start a new thread to find out the answer to that.  I don't know, and it never occured to me.  Now that you have brought it up, I am wondering if the bottom of the drop should be at a specific elevation in relation to the waterline or the main.  Looking at BoilerPro's photo its a little more than 1/2 way between, and looking at Steamheads I can't tell.  Mine is a little more than 1/2 way.  I think that discussion would be a good topic for a new thread.

I come from a contracting background but I have no heating or steam experience other than a nescesary interest in what I have to live with.  The Wall here helped me get my stuff together, and I am just passing it on to you and others with as many shortcuts as I can. 

You could use the "Contact this user" link to set up a consultation.  A consultation would likely include a plan.  The plan could be attached to the SOW and would specify all the parts and dimensions.  That way you would not have to engineer the whole project.  It's very time consuming.

 

Bill_120

It continues, but some progress- update and a question.

While waiting for the holidays to finish to get started on this, the impeller for the pump sheared internally, on Dec 29, so no heat . Thank God for electric and fireplace . Fast forward-Finally found someone close to bid and selected , Reasonable price, compared to others, and physically closer,. Bad news , unable to start till lat Jan. Guys conducted themselves very professionally, and came as promised, did re-pipe in one day . See pictures . Implemented takeoff from both boiler tappings, added Hartford & equalizer, lowered LWCO, separated the Coal Y . Fired it up and glorious heat came from all radiators quickly . After about 5-6 hrs though, one of the loops did not heat . It was not cold, just not hot . The cool loop return line was about 77 deg, while the other return was at 140+ . The riser to that cool loop, was hot about two-4 feet from the header outbound . I suggested insufficient vent on cool loop Return. I asked about 3 vents but they felt the unit installed this was adequate . When they came back to address the cool loop problem, they put a very large copper cannister vent on the cool side about the same diameter of a can of pop mounted as a can would sit (vertically) . Again, we had all heating, but after about 5-6 hrs, same loop is cool, not cold. The riser to the cool loop side which was warm about 2-4 feet up, was now warm about 3-5 feet up . They have scheduled a return on MOnday . Would you offer any thoughts ? The vent on the most distal radiator, would purge air and then "inhale". like breathing . There is a fair amount of surging which they have indicated is unacceptable and should abate after they do another skim/fill . Does not appear to short cycle . They adjusted thermostat for longer delay too.



Note on pictures - hartford loop not quite like the book pic, is it correct ? Note King valves per recommendations. Putting an electronic probe may have bee a problem I was told. so passed. on that . Even with this not up to par, it is far better that it has been for the last 8 years . Thanks for all the advice and the Dan's Books .

crash2009

Looks pretty good Bill

I don't know about the Hartford.  If your guys were wondering how to get 3 vents up there, here are a couple pictures.  The third picture is how mine ended up.  From left to right the names and venting capacity (CFM @ 2 oz) of those vents are Gorton #2 (1.750), Hoffman 75 (0.750), and Gorton #1 (0.540).  I have the same three on each side, each side is 75 feet long.  Once the burner turns on, it takes 6 minutes for the steam to travel from my boiler to the vents.  I plan to replace the Gorton #1's with Gorton #2's so as to cut down the 6 minutes to around 3.



I wrote on your picture a 1 and a 2 to represent main 1, and main 2, which one are you having trouble with?  The number of vents you need can be calculated with math.  We need to know the pipe size, the length of each main from the boiler all the way around the house to your existing main vent.  Those main vents look a little light for natural gas.  Get the main vents working correctly first.  Before you start playing with the radiators vents.  While you are measuring the length of the mains, check to see if you have any sags/low spots.  This may be restricting the problem main as well.

Bill_120

Slow side

Thanks for your comments . #2 is the side which heats equally with #1 initially, but after the boiler is on for a while , the #2 loop goes cool, not cold just not heating . The vent for #2 has been changed from the picture to one like the copper/popcan units in your examples. How does one calculate vent requirements ? Was it in Dan't Lost Art of Steam heating ?

In re to the run for one loop, the Suspect loop goes in a circle in the basement, but branches to the the second floor rooms,. I have no way to measure that distane . Does one just use the main loop in the basement for measurement ?



The Vent is on top of the stack still , not offset back as are your drawings.

I will put forth your ideas .Could it not be simply tested by removing the Vent entirely when the side is cool. and see if it heats up ? Just a thought. Although doing it live, if there is a back load of steam might not be a good idea. . Any ideas are appreaciated.

Thanks again.

Bill

Steve_175

Venting & Skimming

Bill you would be surprised at how much venting you really need to get this modern steam system running efficiently. These guys helped me see the light and it really helps to vent your mains with a LOT of vents. How much venting you may ask? Well I am going to guess that you mains are 2" dia. If that is the case then you have .0218 cu ft of air per ln ft of pipe.So multiply that number times the ln ft of mains you have. Now the Gorton #2 can vent 1.1 cfm at 1oz of preasure. How many of those vent will match that number you came up with. Gorton makes a #1 to and three #1's are the equivalent of one #2 but will cost more. Don't be afraid to over vent if thats how the numbers work.



See what Gill has to say on the subject.



http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415



Because of the all of the recent rework with the piping you should make sure you properly skim the boiler. Contaminated water can cause wet steam. Made a big difference when I skimmed my new boiler this year.



Gill also has something to say about that subject.



http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=555



Once you have got all that done you might consider getting a Vaporstat and a low pressure gauge so you can get the steam pressure really low to save money.



Dan explains it well here.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/290/What-Ive-learned-about-steam-pressure



The vaporstat and low pressure gauge help you fine tune your system.You can get the vaporstat here.



http://www.patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/HONEYWELL_L408J1009



This is a good pressure gauge.



http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020



And you will want to put this below both of them so the needle dose not bounce around.



http://www.valvestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=32618





See how it might look here.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134509/Switching-P-trol-to-V-stat

crash2009

If I am reading you right

initially all the radiators on both loops are heating normally.  Then, after 5-6 hours the rads on side 2 slow down to be just warm.  What would happen if you just left it alone for 24 hours?  Would side 2 still be just warm?   



Have you thought about the thermostat angle?  Your thermostat is probably within the vicinity of side 1.  When side 1 gets warm enough the boiler shuts down before side 2 has a chance to heat up.  To test this you could shut off the radiator that is closest to the thermostat.  This was the first problem I had to solve when I split my single loop into 2 separate loops.  My first instinct was to move the thermostat, but there is an easier way.  If it turns out, after the test, that this is what is happening, put an adjustable vent on the radiator closest to the thermostat.  Ventrite #1 is my favorite.  You could also use a Hoffman 1A although I find them difficult to adjust.



You need more main vents.  Just to get you in the ballpark, 1 Gorton #2 for every 30 lineal feet of 2" main.  Here is where you can get the chart to figure it exactlyhttp://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/146/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-by-Gerry-Gill-and-Steve-Pajek

Steve_175

By my calculations

Hey Crash I get an answer of 1 Gorton #2 per 50 ln ft of 2" pipe. How did you come up with 30' ?

crash2009

I never calculated

I just ballparked it.  What does it work out to for 2 and a half inch pipe?

Steve_175

Estimates

If the id of the pipe is 2.5" then a Gorton #2 could handle 32'.

If it is 2.25" id then a Gorton #2 could handle 40'.

crash2009

Well that explains it

I must have been thinking 2.5" and writing 2.0".  So then, 1 Gorton #2 for every 50 feet of 2.0" pipe.  1 Gorton #2 for every 32 feet of 2.5" pipe. 

Funny thing about how these separate mains work.  I have a Gorton #2, a Hoffman 75, and a Gorton #1 on each main.  Both mains are about 75 feet each.  Main 1 is 2.0" and Main 2 is 1.5".  Yet both Hoffmans clink and get hot at exactly the same time.  It appears to me that Main 1 (the first in line) starts to fill first, then when its about (who knows) 3/4 full, the steam starts filling Main 2.  Once the pressure is equalized in both mains, the steam fills the final few feet of both mains, at the same time.  Often the Hoffmans clink at the same time, and usually within 30 seconds of each other.  I guess this is what you call "balance" I thought this little tidbit may be useful to you Bill.  Thanks for doing the math Steve.



In Bills case (I think) Main 1 is filling up normally, some steam is venting through the radiators, of which one of those radiators is beside the thermostat.  The thermostat shuts down the boiler because it has enough heat to be happy.  This shutdown happens before Main 2 can fill up and heat the rest of the home.  Waddaya think about that?