Bryant 235BAW cleaning procedure?

ryanr256

I have a dirty boiler. I can't find any documentation on how to effectively clean it. I do have the "Guide to Operation and Maintenance" and the "Installation, Startup and Operating Procedures" documentation for the boiler but neither has the procedure for cleaning it.

Do I simply drain and refill numerous times to flush it?



Here's a link to some pics of the system:



<a href="http://cerebro.cs.xu.edu/~ryanr/boiler/">http://cerebro.cs.xu.edu/~ryanr/boiler/</a>



The pics are about 5 meg in size.



-Bob

ryanr256

Here's what I've done

OK, so maybe a little background is necessary.



I'm trying to "clean up" a one pipe system that has not been maintained for about 5 years. The issues are:



1. severe water hammer in the pipes (not radiators)

2. water "pumping" in the sight glass

3. we've replaced the same section of piping (where the hammer occurs) twice in two years because of pinhole leaks.

4. dirty, rusty water emitting from the main air valves periodically, the remnants of which can be seen on the right valve and piping in the pics of the post above.



I've ordered the three book special and through the info on this site I've been able to reduce (or maybe even eliminate) the water hammer and water spewing from the air valves. My issue now is the water in the sight glass. It is dirty and pumps up and down while the boiler is on.



What I've done so far:



1. When I replaced the leaking pipe, I put a pitch on it so that it isn't level. My thought was that water was sitting in the pipe causing it to rust from the inside out and is the source of the hammer.

2. Removed the site glass and drained the boiler. I left the drain valve open and "flushed" the boiler by flowing water from a garden hose into the lower sight glass fitting. A lot of dirty, nasty water came out. I would close the valve and let the boiler fill, then open the valve to let the water pressure flush the dirt out.

3. I also used the autofill system to fill the boiler with the site glass off and let the water drain from the site glass fitting. This was my way of skimming because I don't see a skimming fitting.

4. I removed the pressuretrol and cleaned out the tube.

5. I adjusted the pressuretrol so that it cuts in at .5 and set the wheel at 1.



The net effect of this is that the system runs a whole lot better (and quieter) than it ever has. I still have the pumping but I think my method of flushing the boiler will eventually clean it out. I also think that all the gunk that was collecting in the pipes is now being flushed back down into the boiler and that's why it's pumping. My concern is using the site glass fittings as ports for the cleaning. Is that proper?



Oh, all of the upstairs rads (4 ) have Hoffman 1A valves. I'm in the process of getting them for the downstairs rads (6). I just have to get it through the budget committee. And, when the first occurrence of the water spewing from the main air valve happened we were told that the valve was bad. It was a Hoffman 75. When I asked about a replacement, I was told "They aren't made any longer." and was sold a Jocobus J1. It's in my plan to put another Hoffman 75 in soon.



So, that's where I'm at. :-)



-Bob

BobC

Flushing

Good to see your staying busy!



You will probably have to flush and drain the system many times to get all the accumulated crud out, it's best done through a mud leg so you get the stuff at the base of the boiler. If the boiler is under SLIGHT steam pressure it will help move the crap along - be careful so you don't get burned. The down side is you can't go spraying cold water into a hot boiler but a rubber hose from the water heater feeding 140 to 160F water should be fine (vinyl hoses WILL burst, use rubber). Just make sure you bring the boiler up to steam after flushing and refilling so you drive off the oxygen in the water. You don't want fresh water to sit in the boiler for hours without driving off the oxygen.



You mentioned surging in the sight glass, how much - a half inch or so at pressure is usually ok. Do you have an auxiliary low pressure gauge so you know exactly where you are with pressure? Pressuretrols are not very precise and 0-30PSI gauges don't indicate accurately at 1-2PSI. Just make sure there's a siphon loop between the steam and a low pressure gauge, you can T it off the one feeding the presuretrol - just keep the gauge verical.



The Hoffman 75 will vent 0.5cfm at 1oz, Maid-O-mist #1 vents 0.33cfm at 1oz, a Gorton #2 will vent 1.1cfm at 1oz. You want to vent the main fast, one or two minutes. No sense in burning fuel to just compress air. Have you figured out the volume of the main to be sure you select the right vent? They are to expensive to just guess, you can order vents online at pexsupply.com.



keep the faith,



Bob C

ryanr256

Bryant 235BAW cleaning procedure?

Bob,



Thanks for the reply.



I've been using the ball valve that is at the bottom of the return line, which is at the base of the boiler. There's another ball valve that is at the end of the wet returns piping. I'll open that one too and see what comes out.



The water in the sight glass is clear when the boiler isn't running. When it's on, the water gets cloudy and brownish. It usually comes from the top of the sight glass.



I always run the boiler to rid it of excess oxygen. That's one of the first things I learned from here. :-)



The pumping is usually about 1 inch, but sometimes it will drop maybe 2 inches and then rebound.



I plan on putting a 0-3 PSI gauge on soon. The pressuretrol is T'd off of the top fitting for the sight glass. I intend to extend it and install the gauge.



I haven't done any calcs yet. I'm waiting for the books to arrive before I delve that far. My first goal was to get the system running reliably and reverse any negatives from the lack of attention. I mentioned the Hoffman because we have two main vents and they were both Hoffmans, so I thought I'd replace the Maid O'Mist with what was there originally to get back to a baseline.



Again, thanks for the help.



-Bob

BobC

Brtant 235BAW near boiler piping?

As long as the boiler water is clean, the rust your seeing in the sight glass is probably drifting down from the piping and can take a long time to settle down.



I looked at your posted pic's again and the header and equalizer don't look good. Usually the steam comes up out of the boiler to a horizontal header that is at least 28" above the waterline and then wraps down to form a equalizer that goes to the hartford loop and into the boiler return. Pipe(s) come off that horizontal header and go up to the steam mains. Dan's books go into a lot of detail on this. Just remember getting pipes off an old boiler can lead to unexpected consequences.



Without correcting the near boiler piping I don't know if you'll be able to control that gauge glass surging and i suspect your producing a lot of wet steam. Below you will see a diagram that gives you a generic idea for the way the near boiler piping should look, in that example the boiler has two steam outlets. Another example shows the whole system but this one has an error; at the end of the horizontal header an elbow turns sideways - that is not good. That elbow should turn straight down to connect the equalizer o the boiler return.



Also the near boiler piping and mains should be insulated, that would calm things down, but I don't know if it will be enough without fixing the near boiler piping. The only manual I could find online just covers the hot water version of the boiler, that is attached below.

ryanr256

Bryant 235BAW near boiler piping

Thanks for the comments on the near boiler piping. I was wondering about it myself after looking at pictures and diagrams of how it should be installed. I've also always wondered why all the piping and electronics for the boiler were installed within a foot and a half of a wall on the "back" of the boiler when, if the boiler is rotated 90 degrees, there's plenty of room for maintenance on either side. I've always trusted that whoever replaced the original boiler knew what they were doing, but after reading the information on this site, I'm not so sure.



I don't know if I want to tackle the job of repiping just yet. And, to top it off, the pitch of our pipes is nowhere near what I've been reading is the recommended pitch.

 

We've made a tremendous improvement this week. Now when the boiler fires, we only hear the radiator valves venting for a little bit and then they'll go silent. That's a big change from the banging and clanging that would wake the dead we used to have. I think we had a major mis-setting of the pressuretrol. The cut in was at about 3 and the cut out wheel was set to 4. With it set to .5 in and 1 on the wheel, the boiler doesn't run as long as it would before and the sytem is eerily quiet. We actually have felt the radiators to make sure it's working!



Here's a couple more questions:



1. Can I put a T at the top of the pressuretrol pigtail and install the 0-3 psi gauge and pressuretrol off of the one pigtail? Or, do they need a separate pigtail?

2. How can one tell if a main vent or radiator vent is "bad"? Do they go bad? Is it possible to clean them?



Again, I cannot express how appreciative I am for the advice I've received. The information on this site has allowed us to tame our out of control system and I now have a basic understanding of how it should be set up and maintained.



Thank you all, even if you've not directly responded. I've read a lot of prior posts and articles that have helped me.



-Bob

Rod

Multiple Gauges

Hi Bob-

  Answers to your questions:

1.Yes, you can tee off the pressuretrol line and install multiple pressure gauges.

2. Yes, main vents can go bad especially if they have been over pressured. (any vents after about 3 years operation should be suspect) If they are crudded up lime deposits you can try boiling them in vinegar as that sometimes works.

If you need new ones try Pex Supply on the internet. They have Gorton #1s &# 2s and also Hoffman 75 s. How do you tell if they are working. Usually you can here them shut off. Another thing you can do is hold a strip of paper (Don't use you hand -Live steam burns hurt!) near the vent hole and that should indicate when the vent closes.

Glad to hear things are coming along for you

- Rod

Edit: Reread your posts about main venting availability. Venting capacity- A Gorton # 2 has 3 times the venting capacity of a Gorton #1. The Hoffman 75's capacity is about between the two Gortons.

ryanr256

Main vents

Cool, using the pressuretron pigtail makes the installation of a 0-3 PSI gauge much easier.



We have two main vents. One is vented by a Hoffman 75 and the other is a Maid O'Mist. The Maid O'Mist was installed when I was told Hoffmans weren't available any longer. Originally both vents were Hoffman 75s.



The Hoffman is on the, for lack of a better description, left return and is quiet. That side has never been a problem for us. It's the right side that has been the problem. Maybe 5 or 6 years ago, when the vent was a Hoffman 75, we had rusty water come up through the vent and spray everything in sight. That's when the Maid O'Mist was installed because we were told the Hoffman was bad and they couldn't get them any longer.



Well, we had the same situation happen with the Maid O'Mist about a week ago. Rusty water spraying from the vent. Plus, the right side is always venting. It is never quiet like the Hoffman on the left. At times I can see wisps of steam coming from it.



That, and other issues, led me here. I've learned that our system was way over pressurized and extremely dirty. I've corrected both issues but the Maid O'Mist still isn't quiet during the boiler operation. Also, a couple of our radiator vents never shut down. They are always venting. We don't have any puddling at the radiators though.



-Bob

Rod

Main vents (cont.)

Hi Bob-

The water in the vents is unfortunately probably due to the present boiler piping configuration. Lowering the pressure has probably helped this situation a lot. When you get your 0-3 PSI gauge installed you might try lowering even more. The 0-3 gauge will allow you to make fine adjustments.  Lower the pressure as far as you can and still have the system work. However there is a limit on this as pressuretrols can get a bit "flakey"at very low settings. When you reach this point just go back a notice to the last one that worked. Building steam pressure uses fuel so having lowered the pressure, you are now saving fuel.

Main vents- If you have room you could try putting the main vent up on an "antler". (See attached drawing)  This may help as it get the vent farther away from the water. Using an antler is also a way to increase your venting capacity as you can add more vents easily. Be sure to use the pipe union as this allows you to remove the vents easily all at once for service.

Another thing I might mention is the Gorton #1 is equal in venting capacity to the Maid of the Mist main vent. For main vents, the Gortons are pretty popular with the steam people on the wall. They are available from Pex Supply.

- Rod

ryanr256

Near boiler piping

Thanks Rod. The more I read and the more pictures/diagrams I see the more I want to redo the near boiler piping.



What concerns me is I don't see where we have anything like a Hartford loop. I've read that the loop should come into the balance pipe at 2 inches below the normal water level. The way ours is piped, there's nothing even close to that dimension.



Right now I'm trying to determine how to get enough separation between the supply main and the return so I can get the proper length header. There are unions on both the main and return that I could use instead of having to remove the piping directly coming from the boiler.



I know removing the pipes from the boiler is a risk and I want to minimize that risk as much as possible. Or, maybe instead of repiping I just do what I can do to minimize the issues, but the lack of a Hartford does concern me.



-Bob