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Hot water

Rock
Rock Member Posts: 46
I have a Peerless oil fired boiler with a coil for hot water. The water does not get hot . It only gets hot when the thermostat for thwe heat is turned up. What controlls the hot water ?

Paul

Comments

  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    edited November 2010
    Coil

    The coil is iinside the boiler. If the thermostat for the heat is off the water does not get hot , to get hot water I have to turn the heat on by the thermostat. I am not sure what aquastat, I will have to get back to you on that.  What  should I set the aquastat settings to?  I an in the North east (NY).

    Thanks Paul
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    edited November 2010
    what model

    Peerless boiler do you have? What's the #'s on the aquastat?  The aquastat would be coil mounted, probably dark gray, either R8182, or 8124. There should be a low and hi limit inside. Do you have a tempering valve for the coil? Pics or model and #'s will help. I don't think you have a bad coil if it is making hot water when the boiler gets some temp on it. I doubt it's a cold start control, unless someone recently replaced it, or turned the low limit down too low
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    Aquastat

    This boiler is in a rental house. I will be going there this sunday to check out the problem. I believe the aquastat  was replaced a year and a half ago. The system was working fine at one point so I can rule out a bad set up. I would like a list of things to check when I go there,  like upper and lower limit settings etc. I will take a picture of the set up and note model numbers.

    Thanks Paul
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Hot Water:

    Just because the control was replaced a year ago and no one complained doesn't mean the proper control was used in the replacement.

    What the previous poster said is what should be there.

    An indirect might work for some but a cheaper alternative would be a storage tank. All a indirect does is take the indirect coil out of the boiler and put it in a water tank. I personally prefer storage tanks.
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    No hot Water

    I took a look at the boiler. It has a Honeywell 8124 aquastat. I tried adjusting the upper and lower limit, nada. I Closed the relay on the aquastat by hand and the burner came on. I turned the thermostat on for the heat and it came on. How do I troubleshoot this? Or do I just replace the aquastat or could it be the thermocouple? I am very mechanically inclined. Thank in advance.

    Paul
  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 459
    New Tennants?

    If the tennants have never lived with a hot water system like that, they might think it's not working when in reality, it is working. Something to consider anyhow.. I moved from Forced air / Electric Hot Water to a home with a boiler and a coil. It was the first thing I ripped out of there.
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    No hot water

    The tennant has been in the house since last year, the system was working at one point, I know that for a fact. Anyone concur on the aquastat and difficulty of replacing??

    Thanks Paul
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    No hot water

    The tennant has been in the house since last year, the system was working at one point, I know that for a fact. Anyone concur on the aquastat and difficulty of replacing??

    Thanks Paul
  • ChasMan
    ChasMan Member Posts: 459
    Hmm

    I only see one relay in that box. It probably triggers the circulator and burner together?

    My guess is that it is the wrong control or it is not wired corectly but Im not a pro and its been a while since I hooked up an aquastat. The burner should fire off the low limit seperately from the circulator.
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    No hot water at all

    The problem is no hot water at all. The tennant is not complaining about too little hot water. There is none at all. None nada. The boiler does not come on at all, unless you call for heat with the thermostat. Adjusting  the upper and lower limits on the aquastat doeasnt fire the boiler.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    defective control?

    Sounds like that's the case. Should be 2 years on that? If not, than still need a new one. Wiring is crappy, but appears to be right. The temp gauge should be reading and maintaining the low limit setting. I'd call the installer to check it out, and check on the warranty, you might be in luck on that. Might just be 1 year. I use only Sids for those, and it is 2 years, not positive on new. 
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    another thought

    I also see a new cad cell control on there. Has there been any reset or loss of heat calls recently? It does look like it should get a clean/service to start. Might be off on safety?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Control:

    Someone who replaced the control wired it wrong (or),

    The burner and the circulator (low limit circ, yellow wire) are coming on together. OR,

    $ucking with the temp controls is getting the thing messed up. The "high limit" MUST be set at least 20 degrees above the "low Limit" or operating control. Or, the burner will lock out or not start when the temperature falls in the 20 degree range.

    Also, if the ZC/ZR terminals are running another control/relay, it can do this. You have the right control for the application, it is just wired wrong, set wrong, or it is defective.

    And no one should be messing with the settings "to save money". They WILL save money if they don't have hot water.

    DON'T MESS WITH THE GD SETTINGS!!!

    I usually set the settings for a tank-less rig like this at 200 degrees for the high limit and 180 for the low limit or operating. Any lower and if you have a dirty coil or a small boiler, you have a hard time keeping hot water.

    And to the guy here who moved in to a house that had a tank-less and eliminated it, you pee'ed away cash.

    When I built my last house, I couldn't plumb it and had a very reputable P&H co plumb it. They were the ones used by the contractor. They wanted to use a indirect with a boiler WO a tank-less. W/M WTO where I wanted a WGTO W/tank-less and a storage tank. They insisted their way, I refused. "I'm paying for it. This is the way it is." I wanted a electric heater, they bought a "storage tank" that was a electric heater with the element holes plugged with 1" plugs. I gave them a diagram on how to plumb it. They didn't want to do it that way. Something about "pre-heating the water" (you don't need to "preheat the water.) Do it this way and if you don't, I'll just change it so it works. I had to change it.

    Any of you plumbers in MA remember having to draw how to pipe a Brown Brothers copper tank with a side arm gas heater for your exam? Piped just like that. Works for anything.

    Another thing,

    Honeywell makes a electronic control that replaces ALL of those, including the one with the remote capillary tube. You can set it up do all functions of this control. It will do the above described thing. It will also cause you to run out of hot water because it goes through a self test period and the time it takes to do it, the water temperature can fall too low to easily catch back up on small, low water volume boilers.

    For what it is worth.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Control Check Time:

    OK, Here goes.

    Time to check the control for proper operation.

    When the boiler is sitting there, and not having been operated for some time and the water is hot in the boiler, turn the "low limit" up to as high or higher than the high limit. The burner should start, if it doesn't, replace the control.

    If it starts, turn the control back down to where it was.

    Turn up the thermostat. The burner and circulator should start. If it starts, let it run for a minute or so. Turn the "High Limit down to 150 degrees or lower. The burner should stop but the curculator should continue to run. If it doesn't operate in the manner described, replace the control.

    Turn the "Low Limit Circulator up to  above the high when the burner is running and the thermostat is calling for heat. The burner should run and the circulator should stop. Turn it back down and the circulator should start again. If not, replace the control.

    If all the things above work properly as I suggest, the control is OK but seems to have a wiring issue.

    It's hard to see where the terminals are connected. That is not in MA because you can not use UF or NM wire for control connections. And I always lke to see all the wires coming pout of one terminal when there are three provided. It makes it so easy to find the one connected to the wrong place.

    You have a idiot proof control. What is the manufacturers date of MFG on the control? Does it coincide with the time of install? I would be intrigued by the three knock outs on the bottom. Theu come with all three in place, Perhaps someone installed a used defective control.

    Gor to go.
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    Fixed

    I replaced the aquastat with a rebuilt one and it is working fine. The old one looks like it was also a refurb. That explains the nockouts. Good catch Icesailer. Thanks all for the replies.

    Paul
  • Rock
    Rock Member Posts: 46
    Fixed

    I replaced the aquastat with a rebuilt one and it is working fine. The old one looks like it was also a refurb. That explains the nockouts. Good catch Icesailer. Thanks all for the replies.

    Paul
  • Patchogue Phil_2
    Patchogue Phil_2 Member Posts: 303
    sketch

    draw how to pipe a Brown Brothers copper tank with a side arm gas heater

    for your exam? Piped just like that. Works for anything.




    Will you please post a sketch?  I am interested in how you did this.  Thanks.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Hacks:

    Damn Hacks.

    Did they really think they would get away with putting in a used or salvaged control and no one would find out?

    From the vastness of the Internet, they got busted. What I always worry about if "I" would dare to attempt that.

    Call that guy up who installed that controll and ask them how come all the knock outs were removed before the install and why?

    New rebuilt ones have all knockouts in place.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Brown Brothers:

    Phil,

    I'm in FLA right now so I can't really make something but I can be descriptive.

    They are like gas water heater tanks with a opening on the side gor a gas valve. But I will use the desctiption using a electric water heater.

    So imagine this.

    Take the 3/34" drain out of the bottom and install a 6: brass nipple with a tee. I usually use another nipple and ell to make a swing joint. Put a 3/4" drain valve in the other end of the tee. Roll the ell up, add a nipple and a 3/4" bronze Taco 006 or the SS one they now sell. The flow/arrow MUST be facing away from the tankReduce to 1/2", put in a 1/2" swing check and continue up. Connect this to the cold inlet side of the tankless. Where the cold water will enter the heater, after the shut off valve, install a 3/4" x 1/2" tee and connect the water from the hot side of the tankless heater. The water heater should be connected full size, 3/4" on the hot and cold.

    I use the bottom thermostat on the water heater to control the pump as a switch leg. You do not need to have any wiring connected to the elements etc.

    When the call for hot water comes, the circulator will start, drawing the coolest water from the bottom of the tank. It is sent into the inlet of the tankless. It is heated and sent to the TOP of the water heater but the dip tube inside the WH sends the heater water to the lower 2/3rds of the tank where it mixes and rises to the top. If the pump isn't running, the cold ends up in the bottom of the tank. If the circ. runs while using hot water, the hot and cold mix in the dip tube. You get full and equal pressure on the hot and cold and more control over the temperature.

    If you figure out how this goes together, you can pipe any tank as a storage tank in tandem with a source of heated potable water. I've done it with a Bock 73E oil fired water heater on a restaurant type building that would have short big draws.

    I'll add more in a few. I've got to do. 
This discussion has been closed.