Oil vs. Natural Gas

brian in e.mass

Hi,



I have an oil-fired boiler that needs to be replaced.  To convert to natural gas I would take advantage of a program from the gas distributor (N. Grid) that would bring the gas service to the house and discount the boiler - only choice is Burnham PIN5SNI-ME2.



For my single pipe steam system, which is better; oil or natural gas?



In case its relevant, the current system (Burnham) has a DHW coil and a hot water loop for 24' of baseboard heat in the basement.



By the way, proposals for staying with oil usually involve a Weil-McLain SGO, and some propose a Burnham Megasteam MST396 (others were Smith and Utica).

nicholas bonham-carter

changeover?

i wonder if it would be useful for you to get a price from an independent steam pro for both systems-oil, and gas.

many times we hear about botched jobs, done as quickly as possible, maximising the profit to the national grid. another quote would give you further information.--nbc

Nelson_4

What town?

If you are anywhere near Weymouth, MA, you can contact Norm Harvey of Barefoot Energy. He did a great job installing my Megasteam. We cut our oil consumption in half.

Steamhead

That Burnham

is a dry-base, atmospheric type of boiler, which is not as efficient as a wet-base one with a power burner. National Greed pushes atmospherics because they can sell more gas to a customer with one.



The MegaSteam is far and away the best residential steamer out there- unfortunately Burnham doesn't offer a gas version yet. But the Smith G-8 and gas-fired Slant/Fin Intrepid are good choices for gas.



Also, staying with oil gives you a choice of suppliers. With gas, you only have the one.

TomM

gas vs oil

1 gal oil is 140,000 BTU and 1ccf of gas is 102,000 BTU.

-  (I think these values can vary by 20% plus or minus in the lab, but i digress)

you do the math:

-

(1 gal of oil price/140,000)=(1mcf gas price/102,000)

-

don't forget to factor in appliance efficiency, install cost, maintenance cost, rebates, wife complaints, coolness factor, oil tank removal cost, gas price monopolies, Marcellus shale prospects, and future energy law.

-

Can someone comment on the rumor i have heard that oil is better for steam?  urban legend or not?

-

Tom in Conshohocken

brian in e.mass

Energy costs comparison

From what I can figure out, it looks like natural gas is significantly cheaper right now with forecasts of oil prices in New England increasing more than, or at least as much as, natural gas.



I used some spreadsheets I found on the web to take into account fuel price and heat conversion efficiency.  I used the lower efficiency ratings of the gas-fired boiler discounted by N.Grid, and compared it to the higher efficiency of the oil-fired Megasteam.  I'm not certain about the prices of fuel but played with the numbers and still found oil costs significantly more (from 28% to 34%).



The two spreadsheets I used converted to different common units but basically gave the same results.

The one from Penn State used cost per million BTU:  http://energy.cas.psu.edu/costcomparator.html

Another used $ per kWh:http://www.vonwentzel.net/HVAC/FuelChoices/index.html



I am curious about the answer you get regarding "oil is better for steam".  Is there something about using one fuel or the other that is better for a steam system?

Steamhead

Did you include

all the taxes, fees etc. that gas utilities use very small print for? 

brian in e.mass

Fueld cost comparison

I've had a hard time trying to figure out gas prices in particular.  I went over the highest prices for gas that I found from EIA and from N.Grid's site (neither are current), but I don't really know how many therms I would be using or what my full cost is.

EIA: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_sma_m.htm

N.Grid: http://gasrates.nationalgridus.com/ne/NEGasrates/NEGasratesController



Obviously, the more I round up the gas cost, the closer the fuel costs are.  If I round all the way up to $2/therm then oil is only a little more to heat with.



I presume that I will realize more savings with gas when heating domestic water.

JH_2

gas vs. oil price

Around here, the NSTAR price for gas last winter was 77cents per therm plus about 45cents of taxes and delivery fees. So put it at $1.20/therm. This winter the forecast is for the rate to be the same +/- 10%.



Meanwhile the average cost of oil is $2.75/gal.



Doing the conversion $1.20 gas = $1.70 oil. More than offsets the reduced efficiency of the gas boiler I think.



Thinking longer term (decades), most of the projections are that we no more than 10 years from the point when world oil production can no longer meet increasing (i.e China/India) demand and global production will start to decline. The same sources project a glut of natural gas supply do to the shale gas finds meeting or exceeding demand for at least 40 years.



My bet is on gas being the far cheaper option long term.

BobC

Oil vs Gas in Boston

I live just south of Boston and I've done the calculations on the oil vs gas scenario. If you use last winters prices the savings amounts to 8.9%. I pulled the prices off the National Grid Website (you just have to plug in your zip and select the rate) - http://gasrates.nationalgridus.com/ne/

Keep in mind that the winter gas rates are a lot higher than they are in the more temperate months. This is just based on the cost of the fuels, it does not include any other costs.



BTW the current price my oil dealer is quoting is $2.66 per gal. This tells me converting to gas is not cost effective unless you are replacing a boiler because it it either very inefficient or on the brink of failure. When my boiler dies I will replace it with a gas boiler, probably equipped with a gas gun for maximum efficiency.



The enclosed pdf file shows the spreadsheet I based all this on, let me know if you see anything suspicious. The number of therms per month would be the equivalent to the amount of oil I use averaged out over six months



Bob

jpf321

i tried to do the comparison...

but I found it very hard to get the correct delivery and taxes and psc fees etc from the gas company. Yes, the commodity is significantly cheaper, but the delivery and extra fees is where they get you. My oil company charges $3.50 to deliver + some city heating fuel tax. A recent oil drop of 200gals = $540 (incl fuel + delivery + taxes). @ 140,000BTU/gal = 28,000,000BTU / 102,000BTU/therm = 274.5 THERMS .. problem, I have no idea how to get a pricing for 274.5 THERMS all inclusive of fees from N.Grid.



Here is a link to the "gas rates" for my NYC area .. and I can't figure it out ..

http://is.gd/gkrXn

I'll go with the third scenario, worst case (DELIVERY ONLY I THINK):

First 3 Therms: $13.11

Next 47 Therms: $0.84 = $39.48

All Excess: $0.31 = 274.5 - 50 = $69.59

Total DELIVERY ONLY: $122.18

MAYBE supply = 0.5618 * 274 = 154

TOTAL = $276.18

not including taxes and fees.



Below is a copy of my most recent bill, I invite you to figure it out:

CURRENT BILL ITEMIZED

In 29 days you used 2 therms

10/12/2010 reading ESTIMATED     0113

09/13/2010 reading ACTUAL     0111

CCF Used for METER# 005015098     2

Thermal Factor     x1.0170

Total therms used     2

Your Cost is determined as follows:

Minimum Charge     $12.27

(First 2.0 therms or less)

Delivery Rate Adj

@ .09500 /therm stment     $.19

System Benefits Charge

@ .00830 /therm     $.02

MTA Surcharge     $.02

GAS DELIVERY CHARGE     $12.50

GAS SUPPLY CHARGE

@ .65000 /therm     $1.30

MTA Surcharge     $.01

4.5000 % Sales Tax     .06

Supply Subtotal     $1.37

4.5000 % Sales Tax on Gas Delivery     .56

Bill. Charge (inc. taxes & surchg)     $.83

TOTAL CURRENT CHARGES     $15.26



What I do know is that converting to gas will be very costly since it will involve chimney liner, abandonment of inground tank, upgrading gas supply line so right now, I'm happy with my oil even if it's costing me a bit more day to day. If I figure that the conversion of the above is in the neighborhood of a $2000, and I pay $100 more per equivalent drop of oil, im still good for 20 drops or about 5years. Hopefully my new boiler upgrade may extend that out to 7-10years. (of course assuming gas/oil price ratio is about the same moving forward)

BobC

gas costs

In Boston the rates increase significantly during the heating season and the rates for heating vs non heating customers is different. Fear not, we all get screwed.



My cost for oil was $2.58 / gal in March and if my calcs are correct, gas would have cost me  $2.35 for the same heat output. Cheaper but not nearly as cheap as the gas company claims.



Bob

SBoston

Boston Oil to Gas

We converted from oil to gas during the summer of 2008. Our old oil fired boiler was running at a rate of about 79%, but that was based on stack temperature and probably not the actual boiler efficiency. There were also some near boiler piping issues that were causing problems that lead us to switch out the boiler. It turns out there was a small crack in the boiler that I am sure was leaking steam.



By switching to gas, correcting the piping and installing a proper thermostat we are now saving 35-40% on our yearly heating bills. Huge savings. We had to pay the gas company to bring a main down our road and install a line, and even with that additional cost we will pay for the project in 5 -7 years.



You also have to think about the reduced environmental impact from burning, drilling and extracting oil as well as the knowledge that Natural Gas is abundant domestically.



In our mind it was a win win.

Jean-David Beyer

Monmouth County New Jersey gas prices.

Here in Monmouth County, they have been lowering the price of gas ever since I converted to gas from oil. Failure of Murphy's Law?



Normally, my bill has three separate charges. BGS (Basic Gas Service), DEL (Delivery), and Residential Customer Charge..



The Residential Customer Charge is a constant $8.25 a month ever since I got gas in May 2009.

BGS was $1.108/therm in May 2009. They lowered it to $0.8039 in October 2009. They just lowered it to $0.7557/therm in October 2010.

DEL was $0.5172/therm in May 2009, $0.5299/therm in August 2009, $0.5013 in September 2009, $0.4929/therm in October 2009, $0.5011 in May 2010, and $0.528 for part of October, and $0.5083 for another part of October.

TomM

environmental impact

any environmental impact argument is no good. 

google "hydraulic fracturing". 

I think water tastes better with a carbomethylhydroxylpropyl blend though.

Charlie from wmass

If you had piping issues and a crack

A new properly installed oil boiler could have given equal saving. That horse already left the barn though. I have been tossing this argument around since I was literally a child and still can not say definitely which is cheaper, I personally like the choice to shop around I have with oil but for my house I would have propane so I could still shop around. Environmentally go solar and passive, as any fuel has a big negative impact.

Mark N

No Brainer for Me

For me making the switch was a no brainer. I didn't even consider staying with oil. I wanted the tank out of my basement. I already had gas to my house for everything else, so there was no cost involved with having to run a gas line to the house. I had a Burnham IN-4 installed in December 2008. My gas company is PSE&G and the bill is very easy to decipher. Going over my bills for the last year this is what I came up with. From 10/12/09 to 10/12/10 I used 942.30 therms at a cost of $1,281.42 that comes out to $1.359 per therm. By my calculations of that 942.3 therms I used 566.04 therms for heat the rest for cooking, heating water, and the cloths dryer. 566.04 therms at $1.359 comes out to $769.25 for heat. The last year I had oil I had one delivery that was almost that much money. There is no doubt that if I had stayed with oil and had a new boiler installed it would have been much more efficient than the old one and my oil usage would have gone done.



Mark

humhead

How is a wet boiler

more efficient than an atmospheric boiler?

Rod

Go for Efficiency.

I have oil at the moment but will probably switch to gas in the future if the oil burner manufacturers don't get off their butts and produce a modulating oil burner for residential use.  If I was changing to gas I sure wouldn't go with the equipment the gas company offered me but would go with the wet base boiler w/ power burner option like that being done by Steamhead and Charlie and I would also figure out how to modulate it.  With the U.S. dollar where it is, fuel prices are going up. Oil will go first and gas will follow it always, staying just a bit cheaper to sucker more customers in. I don't think fuel prices will matter that much but efficiency will.

Just my 2 cents

- Rod

Charlie from wmass

A wet boiler

has water under and around the fire chamber. Also a wet boiler uses a power burner, either gas, oil, or in commercial boilers either through the same burner. The power burner also allows for better control of the combustion air and reduces stand by heat loss through the burner due to the geometry of the boiler.

Mark N

No Leaks

The boiler I had replaced was a Weil-McLain K-167 that was about 75 yrs old. It didn't leak water. Only needed water about once a month. It ran great and heated the house very nicely. It had 2 riser from the boiler both about 3 inches in diameter. They went right up to the ceiling at least 3 ft. They tank was in my basement and took up a lot of room it was old and I was glad to be rid of it. Thank god it wasn't buried in the yard. They can be leaking and you don't even know it.



Mark

Steamhead

Was that

a round boiler, rather than square? 



If so, its overall efficiency was probably about 40% on oil.



We just replaced two of these "snowman" boilers, and expect significant fuel savings on both.

haaljo

I'm involved with purchasing about 1 million therms/year

about a million bucks. I had a meeting today with our commodity supplier (out of N.J.). They quoted me about $1 therm LOCKED IN for two years.

A little bit more and locked in for three years.

These are crazy low prices. The fracturing and water pollution problem may increase the price slightly but these are big players and pollution of farmer's wells isn't going to stop them. It's all about greed and they are beating each other to death price-wise because they can still make 20% return on 40 cent/therm gas! And gas you pump from the ground into the main gas line. No refinery needed.

This is the equivalent of $1.50 gallon oil. No tank to be worried about and a tank leak is expensive.

It's a no-brainer. Natural gas conversion if available will pay for a new system in two years. After that it's gravy and you have a new system. Just don't go the route of a gas conversion burner. I don't know if the utlties are allowed to do that. any longer.

Steamhead

Where do you get the idea

that gas conversion burners are bad?



Properly applied in a good boiler, they will give better thermal efficiency then the usual atmospheric boiler.



Carlin EZ-Gas, HeatWise SU, Midco EC- we've gotten good results from all of these.

Mark N

Boiler shape

The boiler was more rectangular than square. Looked nothing like the snowman you replaced. I have no doubt that the efficiency was low I was figuring 50 to 60 %.

Steamhead

It was probably

an all-fuel 3-pass unit. There are ways to baffle these to make them absorb more heat, and this helps a lot, but not as much as a new boiler would.  

haaljo

I don't want to hi-jack this thread but want to

complain how these utility programs work and the lack of knowledge of steam systems. I am also in eastern Ma. There is little steam improvement  incentives. A whole house energy audit takes about an hour. There's no blower door test or thermal imaging. This is a program funded by the utility customers.

Ngrid had one conversion burner when i inquired a few years ago. Didn't matter what your boiler was and whether or not you had a good boiler. My recent energy audit said my 1939 steam boiler "efficiency"  is 78%. Now I know why  he said that number but 99% of homeowners say Great. The auditor also told me that I had a "good" boiler.

But I call NGrid anyways and ask to have a contractor come down to look at my boiler. I am assigned a contractor from list and the first question is "why do you have three main vents on your returns?

So, natural gas is really cheap and is going to stay that way for a long time. If you have the ability to switch, a homowner will save a lot of money. But don't trust the gas company to do the best for you. They want to do what's best for them.  That's the way the system works and it doesn't work well for the average homeowner.

BobC

Cheap natural gas

If you go through the numbers you will find gas was 8.9% cheaper than oil, on an equivalent energy basis, last winter in eastern Mass. That's enough of a difference to switch when the time comes to replace a boiler but not enough to switch from reasonably efficient oil fired equipment that is in good shape.



i agree that you might be better off going with a contractor who is not in national grids pocket. The gas company wants to get in and out, if the system doesn't operate efficiently well that's all the better.



Bob

humhead

wet boiler vs Atmosphric boilers

 I inquired with a few contractors about a Smith g8 with carlin gas gun.  I wanted to share what one said.  My initial reaction to the G-8 boiler was "why would anyone in their right mind install a gas burner on an oil boiler (which is what the 8 series is) and who in 2010 would put in a 1950's era tank less coil for domestic hot water?" But I wasn't familiar with this particular boiler so I figured I'd check it out before passing judgement. Now that I have, here's my assessment of that boiler vs the Burnham Independence:

• I can't find any reference to operating efficiency or the Installation & Operation Manual on the Smith website, and my Smith supplier has never heard of this boiler, but my past experience with conversion burners has been terrible in terms of both efficiency and maintenance, and we never install them.
• The G-8 boiler is essentially a hot water boiler with the option of  "converting" it to a steam boiler. It is not specifically designed to be a steam boiler, as is the Burnham Independence.
• So, in light of the fact that I have to warranty and service what I install, at least for the first year -I would not install that boiler.
  
  I have had four  heating contractors ( all independent) and not one would consider installing   a wet boiler with a gas gun.   I showed them the G8 with carlin gas gun info sheet.  Does not seem that this type of set-up is done in northern New Jersey.    Does this type of setup require more maintenance?  Know anyone in North Jersey?  I am committed to converting to gas.  I have gas in the house, and the chimney is lined. 

Steamhead

That is

typical for one who is not familiar with it. Smith does a very poor job of marketing the G-8, we discovered it by accident. I sometimes think this type of boiler has political liabilities- it upsets the oil guys because it's not strictly oil, and also the gas utilities because it's more efficient.



Slant/Fin has approved their Intrepid series for gas burners too, and we have installed a few of these as well. They're both well-made boilers. For us, the choice comes down to whichever one matches the radiation most closely.



Call Bob Flanagan at Slant/Fin for more info. He's VP of sales. Tell him I sent you.



Regarding reliability, the only additional component is the motor, and that's a PSC unit that can be counted upon to last a long time.

haaljo

energy costs in Emass

It's the future cost of oil and gas to be concerned about. The new fracturing technology has more than doubled U.S. proven reserves., Oil is essential to transportation but no so much natural gas.for filling up your tank.

And last year's heating season differential of 8.9% is good for gas and bad for oil but it's going to be a lot more. If you can swtch when you need a new heating system then do it. You will save a lot of money. Then's there's always solar and even electric heating/cooling. Not so much for Massachusetts.

It's just the way it is. Oil heat is not leading edge for heating your houme.

Dave in QCA

Gas is cheaper in the midwest

I am looking at my gas bill for the period ending 10/25/10.  I used 286 therms.  Total cost including taxes was $203.   The gas supply charge does fluctuate through the year, but last season, the cost varied about $0.20/therm higher during the a couple of the months.

We complain about the cost of energy in the Quad Cities, but I guess we are pretty lucky!  Gas is definitely cheaper than oil here, and has been for quite a few years.  In the early 1990s, oil prices were very low.  We flicked the switch on the dual fuel boilers at the hospital where I worked at the time.  It was funny to see the gas company scrambling to see what we were up to.  They suddenly became very interested in talking to us about interruptible service when previously, they wouldn't even discuss it.  At that time, we were able to get our gas prices down to the $.25/Therm area.  

 Those were the good ole days!

Of course, my salary at the time sucked pond water!  I more than paid my wages by the money I saved managing energy costs.

haaljo

1990 vs 2010 doubling in natural gas price

but look at what has happened to oil. I believe oil has gone up 400% (that's 7 perecent/year compounded). natural gas has not even doubled. But it hasn't always been that way.. NG prices have collapsed and there's plenty of it. My question is how does natural gas compare to electricity? I was thinking of installing an electric boiler when my 1939 National gives up the ghost.

BobC

Electric?

In my market (Boston) the cost of energy breaks down like this -



Gas is about $1.69 per therm (based on 93 therms / month and includes the customer charge)



Oil is about $1.90 per therm (2.66 per gallon)



Electricity is about $5.29 per therm (0.18 per KWH)



This market is very expensive for almost any form of energy, the ratio's differ depending on where you are. Electricity is a viable option to augment heat in a room (100% efficient) with a space heater, but can be expensive for the whole house.



Bob

gwarrior99

In search of new boiler and a steam expert...

Back to the original question unrelated to costs, is there any evidence or subjective input regarding oil or nat gas as a "better" energy source, in terms of temperature, ability to produce steam more rapidly, etc?  Does gas takes slightly longer to heat, and may in turn be more consumed?  Got rid of my underground oil tank, for obvious reasons(the 3 neighbors who have done the same over the last year ALL had leaks....)  Thankfully, again thankfully, mine didn't.  I would have to reconfig the basement to contain an above ground oil tank(distance from boiler), and the boiler is OLD, and I have gas already coming into the house.  So a new gas boiler seems most logical, but I'm curious what to expect(aside from cost) given I have had an oil fired burner the last 3 winters?  Thanks, G