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Mark Eatherton
Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
Wallies, please go to



<a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132457/All-of-these-reports-are-great-but">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132457/All-of-these-reports-are-great-but</a>



and read and comment.



Thanks



ME

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  • Dave Yates (GrandPAH)
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    bump

    Been seeing lots of the same issues, which is typical for this time of the year. Eliminating some as we institute changes to hi-e & DV. But, we're catching more than a few spewing CO. Lots of old row homes with unlined soft-brick chimneys that don't want to draft very well for the first minute - or longer, if at all - until the hot combustion gases overcome the 'weight' of the cooled damp air inside the chimney.



    Ran into a classic last week while meeting a landlord to give an estimate for laundry connections. Old steam boiler removed/new smaller steamer hooked up to the 2nd/3rd floor/ galvanized smoke-pipe joints precariously relying on one-after-the-other without any screws/ final adj ell barely inserted into the final thimble of galv pipe. A gentle touch was all it took for that exhaust system to fall off & crash to the floor. That revealed yet another surprise - on the rear of this inside-the-house chimney, there was a galvanized 8" flue cap loosely inserted into yet another old chimney-breech & with wide gaps unsealed! The hot flue gasses from the boiler would have been directly impacting that cap & gaps to reject CO! By keeping eyes opened, we gained a new customer.



    The boiler is not piped correctly - like that's a surprise!



    The first floor DV hi-e furnace is set up like an old 'spider' duct system - with flex lines running for way more than 25' and pinched by strapping. 



    He just purchased the property. It passed the certified home inspection with nary a mention about the heating & CO issues. Wish there was some way we could get home inspectors adequately trained to recognize these issues.



    Were it not for drafty old row homes dilluting the CO pollution, we'd be seeing lots more dead people. 
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    Thanks Dave...

    Reality checks. Not the kind you can cash, but the kind that can cash you in...



    Good on you and your company for doing the right thing.



    ME

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  • Dave Yates (GrandPAH)
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    CO = Comatose Outlook?

    I know we're not alone in this quest to do what's right for our customers, yet........



    Discussing this very issue in an older home's basement today (unlined brick chimney) with some potential customers who want a new boiler, but one that requires no yearly maintenance or safety check. Haven't had theirs serviced for more than a decade! No doubt - none whatsoever - that they will find a mechanical contractor who will sell them one that meets the stated desire. Even sadder - the connected load indicates it (the existing boiler) is grossly oversized. So, not only will they get what they want, the end result might well be yet another increase in size via the doorway, curb, or 'it's what was in stock' methods!



    Ethics 101: make the sale & move on to the next victim; or tell the truth and add a yearly service contract & most likely (in this case) lose the sale.



    Thought for sure your post would get more responses.
  • rlaggren
    rlaggren Member Posts: 160
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    There's a cost to doing what's right

    A cost to you (risk losing sales) and a cost to the customer (money spent, more costs each year, can't get that new car).  Doing right is not a free ride, has consequences; there are hard choices.



    I see very few Americans admitting this. Our leaders in general both in business and politics spew out rosy projections while promising nobody pays more (at least not _you_); nothing is wrong (cuz that would require some kind of action, hence expense). Why should Americans build small fuel efficient cars? Gas is (was) cheap!



    Anyway. Dave, I hope you keep dealing out the straight dope.



    Rufus
    disclaimer - I'm a plumber, not a heating pro.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    On the cost of doing it right....

    In my estimation, the correct way to "Do it right" would be to first take a good course, either from Tim McElwain, or from my mentor, Jim Davis.



    There are a lot more dynamics at play here than "Heat rising" in the flue evacuation systems. Then you have to learn the basics of combustion, and it is more than adding flame to a box. It really isn't all that expensive to get a good education, and once educated and trained, you can turn Lemons into Lemonade.



    It should be fairly simple to put a package together (bid wise) that can be presented to the consumer on the spot that assures SAFE and EFFICIENT operation of these devices. You can justify the safe through saving lives, and you can pay for the whole shebang through energy savings. At that point, you may also include additional energy conserving upgrades, like Outdoor Reset Controls, or a nice high efficiency side arm heater (Turbomax).



    Ignoring the issue will not make IT go away. Instead, ignoring the problem may make YOU go away...(from CO poisoning)



    Take lemons and turn them into lemonade. Lemonade $ell$!!



    Here is a link to a CPSC flyer that you can use to support your efforts in the field. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/464.pdf





    Don't forget to throw in a CO detector in your bid. Can't have too many of them in your house.



    ME

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