Heat loss calculations. who does em?

Robert O'Connor_12

Hi Wall!

Pretty much everyone who is in this business and posts here talk about the importance of an accurate heat loss calculation. By performing one you not only come up with the reliable information necessary to select an appliance but many times this task alone separates you from your competitors in the bidding process. But how often do customers request it? When you apply for a permit does the building department ever request sizing information from you? Does your local enforcing agency require chimney certifications? If they do ask for it, is it only for new work or do they ever request this for say an addition or even a replacement unit. I'm curious to know if this should this be a requirement and if so, do you agree with it? Thanks! 

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Steamhead

Most of our customers

are not aware of heat-loss calcs. We do them on every hot-water job and any job where we are adding radiation. The Baltimore permitting bureau has never asked for sizing info, chimney certifications etc. But in Hagerstown, MD they do want sizing info.



Sizing info should be mandatory everywhere, but I'll bet that would have a LOT of opposition.

Brad White

In our area (MA)

it depends on the town. Most towns do not require them for residential work but the western suburbs with higher tax bases shall we say, often do ask for calculations.



As with most of the information provided, very rarely does anyone review them, they just want something to check off their list and put in the folder. The savvier towns sometimes do have a building inspector with some background and it is refreshing.



A bit of my side work is doing heat loss calculations for some contractors, but most know by now how to do them. If I am advocating for a home-owner reviewing proposals and such, I will ask for calculations by the contractors (or do them myself as a paid service) and take responsibility for the sizing myself. Often I go down a size. Naturally and understandably, most contractors do not want to do heat loss calculations until the deal is signed. My doing the calculations gives them some cover, saves them time, buys a smaller boiler and gets the HO what they should have, all good.



Commercial work is different (anything larger than a 2-family or 3-family home), with affidavits, PE stamps and the like being required. Plus our MA Energy Code requires a semi-standard narrative which addresses several prescribed points such as the basis of calculations,  system descriptions, control interactions, etc. The AHJ cannot, by the code, challenge the system type and design, but just has to verify that the points have been addressed and that the engineer declares that the design is in compliance with code, pretty routine stuff.

CMadatMe

Always

A heat loss shoul be done on every replacment new install jiob. I would tend to say 95% of contractors do not do them. I provide a heat loss service to all my customers. I even offer to go to the job with them. Unfortunately not many take the offer. I have a few that do and this alone has been one of the many reasons they get the jobs eventhough they may be a few dollars higher on the bid. The customer feels they are getting a pro not just someone that can put something together.



In the age of the mod/con if your not doing them then you are not giving the customer what they paid for. I see this everyday.



There is no requirement for heat loss by any town in the local market. Which is a shame. I have come up with a solution for my guys and it is basically three pieces of literature they can give to the homeowner. Two by Energy Star which I am a partner and the other by ACCA which is referenced in the Energy Star Bid Comparison Checklist. Check them out pirnt them use them. They may help when a customer asks, Why is a heat loss necessary and what makes you different than the other guy. They show that you follow the necessary roadmap to a complete properly working job and your not just a pipefitter.



I have these in hard copy color as they are free for Energy Star Partners. They make for nice handouts when you give out your quotes. They also help take away the "free estimates." Remember as is in one of Dan's writings, "Estimates are Free but Exacts cost money."

Robert O'Connor_12

I asked this question because...

A building inspector in a near by town and I were discussing this the other day and I told him that if you were putting an addition on to a single family house or building a house from scratch that it is appropriate to ask for calculations and imho a very reasonable request. He went on to exclaim that "If you ask for something like that then you're a P^*%K". I naturally disagreed with him and began to explain to him that technically "its code" I said. I also said that "well you wouldn't know this because you're a building inspector and you are not a plumbing or mechanical inspector that's why" He just sat there with a smug look and told me to prove it. I then explained the information is in the International Residential Code and that I would make a copy of the section for him. I just wanted to dip my toe in here (the Wall) and ask all of your opinions. No-one has a better handle on all things heating than the participating members of the Wall. In any event, the code section I referred to was the 06 IRC Section 1401.3 Sizing: (it states that) Heating and Cooling equipment shall be sized in accordance with ACCA Manual S based on building loads calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J or other approved heating and cooling calculation methodologies.

So now I've got a hard copy of the code section and a meeting again with him on Tuesday. Any information any Wallie would like to forward to this man please write now so that on Tuesday afternoon I'm copy the responses and hand them to him with the appropriate code citation.

Thanks to all who responded and, or who will.......



Robert O'Connor/NJ

HDE_2

word of advise Chris

If you do the work for the contractor, they never learn and will become to expect your free service all the time and quickly. How do you expect to do 20-30 a week someday?

You will burn out and and only anger your customer

CMadatMe

Education

I don't just do them for them when they are bidding. I teach..Its a partnership. I know exactly how they all pipe their boilers. We qualify customers. I've been doing this a long time. We do not and I repeat do not do a heat loss unless my custmoer is getting paid for them. Estimates are free exacts cost money.



I have done so many that I have the budget down to a science. We quote jobs based off each job and I apply rule of thumb. If we get them we then provide a full heat loss that we give to the customer. They don't take that long. I can do a 3,000 sqft house in a half hour.



I enjoy each and every job. I take it as a challenge. What can I do that will provided this customer with the best heating system. Each and every job has its own budget and comfort level. I do not have a flat way of providing design. I treat each job as its own.



I have taken this approach for over 15 years and my tank is still full. I never cut corners.

CMadatMe

Rob

Just throw him the pdf's in my previous post. These are the industry standards. I would love to sit on that meeting with you. When and where?