Boiler Oversizing and Radiator Survey

hartford_loopy

<span style="font-size:12pt">My Mom’s 1950’s modestly sized brick cape on Long Island finally got its first replacement steam boiler last year.  It’s a gas-fired 175,000 BTU input/145,000 DOE Capacity 454 sq. ft. I=B=R Weil-McLain EG-50, if we can interpret the labeling correctly.  Extremely costly problems with the installation led me to a new heating specialist, who brought an associate from Weil-McLain to review the installation.  Both agreed the system needed to be shut down until the boiler room piping is reworked.  The new contractor sounds eminently qualified, but he additionally urges replacing the way oversized year-old steam boiler with a smaller unit, the EG-35 (rated 258 sq. ft.).  I know we’re in for a couple thousand dollars in replumbing the boiler room, but I want to make sure I’m on rock-solid foundation when I ask the EG-50 installer to refund the cost of the oversized boiler – which he is most welcome to cart off.  The current technician performed a radiator survey and came up with 187 square feet:  The whole house has only three single-pipe radiators on the 800 sq. ft. main floor plus a pipe in the bathroom going to one attic radiator.  The house was generally comfortable with the ancient oil-fired Thatcher boiler.  The seldom-used basement is heated only by the boiler itself and the partially insulated overhead system heating loop.   I can measure a wall and calculate area, but how do I verify the steam radiator area?  Is boiler room replumbing alone enough to reduce short-cycling, banging and gurgling to an acceptable level?  Will that required job, plus adding a long-lacking kitchen radiator and a small bathroom radiator do the trick?  Even with that added load, my new expert says the EG-50 will STILL be two times too large based on his radiator survey, and the licensed plumber should never have installed it.</span>

jpf321

boiler should be sized...

according to the radiation connected. this is a repeated mantra here.



if your rads are indeed 187sf then even the 258sf boiler might be too big. but certainly downsize if you can.



we love pictures, can you post some of your current boiler "situation". it's always helpful to have pics of both good and bad work so that we can use them as examples. there's no need to name any of the plumbers involved in the jobs.



good luck.

Rod

EDR Survey

Hi -

Sorry to hear that you are having problems. You might want to post some pictures of your present replacement boiler's piping so we can take a look at it.

I've attached a worksheet that will help you calculate the EDR of the radiators on your system.  With the direction fuel costs are going, I would definitely obtain the right sized boiler to match the system.

- Rod

BobC

Oversized boiler

Welcome to the club.



My boiler was installed in 1996, before I educated myself about steam, and i ended up with a Burnham V75 thats rated at 596 sq ft of steam. The problem is I only have 190 sq ft of EDR connected to it, this is in a 1100 sq ft two story house. I could probably heat the houses on each side of me as well as my house!



Luckily the installer did a pretty good job with the piping, the header is really too low but the hartford loop is spot on. I started out with a 1.5 gal/hr nozzle and over the years I've downsized to a 1.1 gal/hr nozzle. The result is a reasonably quiet steam system that heats everything just fine, although not as efficient as I'd like.



If I had my druthers I'd tear that boiler out and replace it with a much smaller steamer, but it would take forever to justify that on a payback basis. The result is that boiler will do it's job till it dies and then I'll install the right one.



I don't know if your going to have any luck getting the original installer to take that thing out without a court battle, that will take a long time and probably cost you the price of the new smaller boiler. Maybe you could do everything but replace the boiler and see how it works out.



If it were me I'd redo the piping so it meets the manufacturers drawing and I'd make sure it had a nice big drop header on it so the steam would be nice and dry. The piping in the basement should all be insulated and the mains venting should be checked to make sure it is adequate. The steam pressure should be 1.5 PSI or less. All that should quiet everything down although the system would still short cycle and not be as efficient as it could be.  It seems to me that gas burner might be able to be modified so it puts out less heat by getting rid of some of the gas orifices. You can only go so far so be sure your careful with that. It sounds like the guy your working with now knows what he's doing so I'd ask him if this makes sense.



Let me say that I'm not a pro but I've learned a lot over the years by tweaking my system and reading the books that are available under the SHOP heading of this site.



good luck,



Bob

hartford_loopy

Photos

Rod,

Thanks for the sizing chart. 

JPF 321,

Pcitures attached.  Yes, it was shut down because there is no Hartford Loop.  I am told the cold auto-feed is installed too high up. 

Rod

Over Sized Boiler

Hi- This guy sure didn't know what he was doing. The boiler piping isn't anywhere close to what the manufacturer's instructions call for, No header, no equalizer, the height above the water line dimensions don't look right, and as you mentioned, no Hartford Loop.  Do you have the installation manual? If you don't, you can get usually get a copy from the manufacturer's website. Not following the basic manufacturer's instructions is a big "no-no".

You mentioned that you already have a good heating man and I don't know Long Island all that well but if you're close to New Hyde Park or Nassau county, and need a steam pro, you might want to look up Matt Sweeney at Triple Crown Plumbing (See the "Find a Contractor " section at the top of this page,scroll down to "States" and in the "New York" section, select "New Hyde Park") He's a very qualified steam pro and does excellent work..

- Rod

Dave in QCA

Here is the manual

http://weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/boilers/gas-boilers/eg/eg_boiler_manual.pdf  

You will find the piping diagram for your boiler on page 14.

I agree with the rest that the boiler should be replaced when you get the piping fixed.

I also, would not trust the original company to correct the problem without some qualified supervision.  I do have to comment that they did use threaded black iron pipe, but wow... something sure went wrong.  Maybe they brought the wrong boiler to this house?  And...    Jeesh!

.



If it were me, I would sure want to avoid lots of additional expense without the ability to recover damages from the first contractor.  I would certainly contact a lawyer at this point.   I suspect that if you proceed to have additional work done without requesting the original contractor remedy the problems at their expense, you may be letting them off the hook.  Although they appear to be totally unqualified, were they notified of the problems and were they given the opportunity to remedy the situation.  (Maybe the newest rookie that said he knew what he was doing messed the job up and the owner isn't aware.)  If the answer is no, I doubt you will be able to collect a penny from them.  If they have been notified and refuse to accept any responsibility, I would get their response in writing if you can.  If not, I would make sure that you have documented their response, and hopefully have a witness who was present and heard both sides of the conversation.

If it were me, and I was unable to get the original company to remedy ALL of the problems, including the oversized boiler, at their expense,  I would proceed with a complete redo.  I would save the oversized boiler and the piping and any other materials.  I would sue for a complete refund of the faulty job and improperly sized boiler.  I would save the materials and the boiler because, if you do win, the contractor probably has the right to take them back.

-

But, I am not a lawyer, and that is why you should spend $125-$150 for a visit with your attorney.