I'm staring up from the bottom of the deep end with no idea how to swim.

Volvoguy87

Good day,



I wrote my undergraduate thesis in historic preservation on the merits of retaining steam and hot water heating (especially radiators) but until now I've never been privileged to maintain and care for such a system (I was raised in the outer suburbs of Washington, DC where the one and only heating system to be found was forced air {yuk!}).  Before I proceed any further and risk getting myself into trouble, I would like to seek advice from the more-knowledgeable folks here.  I've already read "Greening Steam," and I have the "A Steamy Deal" set of books on order for myself.  While reading Greening Steam, I realized I hadn't been that absorbed into a book since Harry Potter.  I'm still trying to determine what that says about what goes on in my head.



At the moment, I am working at The Campbell Center for Historic Preservation Studies [ <a href="http://www.campbellcenter.org/">www.campbellcenter.org</a> ] in Mt. Carroll, IL on a contract for a few weeks to review their maintenance procedures and do some longer-term planning.  The campus was the campus of Shimer College until about 1979. 



With 2 exceptions, the campus buildings were heated via 1-pipe steam from a central boiler making steam at 35 PSI.  The central boiler is still here (marked 1928) but it hasn't been fired up since at least 1979 and nobody is about to attempt firing it now either.  Most of the 11 buildings originally on that system have lost many or most of their radiators.  Right now, only some of the buildings are in use.  Only 1 building (the president's house) still uses 1-pipe steam.  It has a 1994 Weil-McLain steam boiler in the basement.  My goal is to eventually restore the 1-pipe steam heating systems to use in the vacant buildings, but that's a very long-term goal.  The Campbell Center has virtually no money and maintenance has been mostly nonexistent for the last 30 years.  I'm trying to write some new procedures, fix some things, and train the 1.5 maintenance guys on the care and feeding of the mechanical systems, but it's a steep uphill battle.  Right now, I need some help with the heating system in the president's house.



The central boiler produced steam at 35 PSI, but I can't imagine that being sent to every radiator on campus.  I don't know if there was an exchanger or some other means to reduce the pressure, but I'll do my best to describe what I'm working with.  The president's house was constructed in 1922 and features a 1-pipe steam system with uninsulated wet returns.  As I wrote above, there is a 1994 Weil-McLain boiler in the basement.  So far as I can tell (lousy eyesight and lack of 1st hand experience) the pressure is set low like I've read it should be.  For the past few years, one of the maintenance guys has been flushing the low-water float chamber every week or so during the heating season, but that is the only maintenance the system has had, period.



Last week we had a problem, and only a few days into heating season.  A pipe near the boiler below water line sprung a leak.  The pipe in question was part of the Equalizer below where it is joined by the Hartford Loop.  Needless to say, the water level dropped and the low water cutoff did its thing and shut down the boiler, thank goodness.  Since that time, the leaking pipe has been replaced and the mess cleaned up.  The drain valve at the bottom of the Equalizer (am I correct in assuming this is the mud leg?)  was completely clogged with mud.  The plumbers removed the valve and found the pipe to be clogged with mud.  They reamed it out and got water to flow out of it once again and installed a new drain valve (hose-size, not bigger).  Yes, there was a great deal of crud coming out.



The sight glass was brown to the point it was impossible to see any water at all.  I removed it, cleaned it, and put it back.  When I opened the valves again, the water that appeared looked like chocolate milk.  Lots of float-chamber flushing later, the water is now at least somewhere between clear and translucent.  How far is the water supposed to bounce in the glass?  In other words, what constitutes surging?  There is no foam showing in the recently-refilled glass, but when the boiler fires, the water level can bounce a few inches.  It never goes low enough to activate the low-water cutoff, and it doesn't quite go as high as the top of the glass  The town-water here is terrible, with lots of rust.  All the white laundry and plumbing fixtures have been stained yellow.  I still need to check the pH of the water, but I need to know more about what additives need to be added, given the water quality, after I finish flushing and cleaning the system.  The boiler has not had ANY additives or pH stabilizers as far as I know since it was installed.  I'd love to know how to properly clean the system (procedure, time it takes, and what to look for).  The boiler has no king valve, and the system has leaks described below and has been taking more feed water than I would like.



There are 2 mains.  One runs along the back of the house, and the other runs along the front.  Each radiator is piped directly off of the main (2-story house with an attic that has 2 radiators), and there are no risers that serve multiple radiators, so far as I can tell.  I think 1 main vent is inoperative, and the other hisses a bit.  The inoperative vent puzzles me.  The radiators on that main do heat, but the pipe up to that main's vent stays stone cold.



At some point, someone added some screwy stuff in the garage.  There is a section there piped in 3/4 inch copper with convectors heating the garage ceiling (I thought copper on steam systems was a bad idea?).  There is a vent on the copper line after the convectors that works.  There is also a fan-forced steam coil on the other side of the garage with a big trap after it.  It's the only trap in the building and I don't know how traps are supposed to work into this equation.



Nearly all the radiators are thin-tube style.  Nearly all of them have the vents in what I would consider to be the wrong place (right at the top where the bleeder valve would be, had they been hot water radiators).  There is what looks like a screw-in plug about 1/3 up from the bottom where the vents could be relocated, but would this be a good idea?  While evaluating the system, I turned the thermostat up high and the radiators will heat all the way across, but the bottoms, especially on the vent-end, stay quite cool so I certainly don't think the upper push-nipple is plugged internally.



Several radiators have issues.  Some of the vents leak and spit, some of the valves leak through the packing, one leaks at the valve where the valve connects to the radiator, and one radiator is leaking between sections, and 2 valves have snapped shafts.  Some vents hiss.  One vent shuts with a clang and will hiss very very loudly when open.  Some vents are almost dead silent, some I can hear if it's perfectly quiet in the house, and some I can hear, but not too loudly.  What's the appropriate level of vent noise?



I would like to know how to replace the bad valves and rebuild the leaking ones.  I've never rebuilt a valve in my life and need to know where to get the materials and what to do with them.  I would say I'd repack the leaking ones, but if I'm going to the trouble of taking the thing apart, I may as well rebuild it fully.  Should I grab a spare radiator from a vacant building and replace the one that's leaking between sections?



As for venting, I'm trying to calculate from the venting charts in "Greening Steam" how much venting the mains need and if that need is being met or not with the original vents.  Also, should the radiators further from the mains have larger capacity vents to take into account the longer supply pipes?  If some radiators need bigger vents, is it a good idea to move the old smaller vents down to other radiators that have failed vents or should old, but still operative, vents not be reused?  Remember, this place has almost no money.



I can take pictures and post them, just let me know what you want to see.  I apologize for making such a long-winded post full of newbie questions that I'm sure have been asked a thousand times before.  I've been reading The Wall and searching, but I wrote this anyway to get more detail, since I'm not a pro and have no intention of implying I am one.  I have precious little time here for now, and this steam system is my responsibility.  I want to give it the badly-needed TLC it hasn't had for decades (and likely won't get again for some time).  As long as it's on my radar, this system is in no danger of being replaced, but it needs some serious help.



Thanks for your patience and advice,

Dave

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Give me a call

Mt Carrol is rather close.  I have worked on some steam for a former college structure over in Mt. Morris,IL, along with many other systems in Northern IL, Wisconsin, and Indiana.  You can find me in Find A Contrcator or at boilerpros.net.

Patrick_North

You lucked out, Dave-

To extend your methaphor, Mark Spitz is on lifegaurd duty.

Keep us posted- sounds like you're in good hands!

Patrick

Volvoguy87

I called

I made the call and spoke with Mr. Boilerpro.  Thanks for the advice and time.  With more help, I'll hopefully sort out this mess.  I'll post some pics as soon as I can take them.  I'm hoping I can shoot some photos tomorrow.



Thanks a whole bunch,

Dave

Volvoguy87

A few shots of what I'm dealing with.

This is a shot of the low water cutoff and cleaned sight glass on the circa 1994 Weil-McLain EGH boiler.

Volvoguy87

Is this proper?

In the first shot you can see how the flue attaches to the boiler, and it's sagging.  There is a draft inducer on this flue, not in the picture, nevertheless I get a little woozy whenever it fires and I'm in the basement.  You can also see the single pigtail with the cut in and cutout out controls.  Not the way I would have plumbed it.



In the second shot, you can see some of the plumbing.  The non-rusty union is on the section replaced this past Monday when the piece of pipe there grew a sizable rust hole.  I had the cover off the boiler so I could inspect it, it's not missing.



Shot 3:  Some of the header.  Just trying to figure out what was going through the installers' heads.  Should there be all those loose wires in the boiler?



Shot 4:  The main vent on the front main.  The main enters the basement-level garage on the right.  It goes up toward the ceiling with a line down to the wet return.  The upper section then goes on a loop through the garage, feeding a convector set, the kitchen radiator, and a forced air coil.  After the loop, the line comes back to the corner with a line down to the wet return with the main vent visible in this picture.  This vent is not working, and it's the only vent on the front main.  I would consider the location of this vent to be questionable.



Shot 5:  These convectors were added at some point in the garage.  They're plumbed in 3/4 copper.  Is this necessarily a good idea?



Shot 6: The vent for the convectors.  This one works, but the location of the vent on the line might not be the best.  Yes, that's where the main comes in from the other side of the basement in the background.



Shot 7:  The steam coil with the blower in the garage.  The lower horizontal pipe goes to a vent to the left out of view.  Does the trap in this shot serve any purpose, bearing in mind this is a 1-pipe system?



Shot 8:  The back main's vent.  This one's dead too, but judging by the dribbled rust, I'd say it had a painful death.



Shot 9:  One radiator.  The valve stem is snapped and it's leaking from the radiator side of the big nut.  The design of this valve is unlike all the others in the house.



Shot 10:  The other end of the radiator.  Believe it or not, this vent still works.  It's near one of the dead main vents.  It hisses, it clangs shut, and it will sometimes hiss VERY loudly, but only for a moment before slamming shut.  After the main vents are replaced, should I replace this vent due to the abuse it has suffered?



Shot 11:  The last one for now.  This is a typical radiator.  Note the placement of the air vent.



What do you think of this?  I think I walked into a bit of a mess.

Dave

Rod

Direction?

Hi Dave-

 There are obviously things that need to be fixed/replaced. I'm a bit lost...What exactly is it you are  trying to accomplish?

Could you take some more pictures of the boiler and near boiler piping from all sides but stand back farther from the boiler so that all the boiler piping floor to ceiling is in the picture. This makes it easier to trace out the piping and where it goes. If we need detail we can zoom in.

I enhanced the first couple of your pictures so they are easier to see and have attached them to this post.

- Rod

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Yep what rod said.....

Get some prictures of the boiler from further back, But from what I can gather, you've got quite a mess there.....which means things can get alot better.

Volvoguy87

Why am I here?

I have great respect for steam heating.  Unfortunately I also have zero experience in operating, maintaining, and improving steam heating.  Here at the Campbell Center (where this system is located) there is nobody who knows what to do with this system, aside from turning it on.  I'm here temporarily and have the opportunity to improve many things, this house's steam heating system is one of those things.  This steam system has been neglected, severely, since at least 1994, and likely long prior to that.  I want to get this system in better shape than it's in right now but I don't know how to analyze what I'm looking at.  I know enough to surmise it's a "mess," but I'm fuzzy on the particulars of what that constitutes and what, specifically, to do about it.



What I'm hoping to get from posting here is a better knowledge of what I'm dealing with and how best to approach it.  The last thing I want to do is screw anything up.



I'll shoot some more photos later this weekend when I can get back into the house.  Thanks for improving the photos Rod.  I'm shooting with a DSLR and the pictures are high-resolution, but I have no skills at photo software.  I'll also try to find out what the main vents are.  I just need to get my hands on a taller step stool (I'm new here and I'm still trying to learn where things like that are stored).



Thanks for looking,

Dave

Steamhead

If you get Boilerpro to come

you'll have one of the best in the business helping you. Go for it!

nicholas bonham-carter

where to start

1.fix the sagging vent hood, and install a good carbon monoxide detector!

2. get a good low pressure gauge, so you know what the pressure is, and keep it down as low as possible. the piping for the pressuretrol is good, if unobstructed, and the new gauge should go on the same "t". a vaporstat would make the low pressure more reliable.

3.replace the main vents with some gorton 2's. the noisy radiator vents indicate lack of venting, and over-pressure.

4. this is not an insoluble problem, and with several hundred bucks of parts, and some time on your part, the system might immediately repay that in a couple of months in greater comfort, and reduced heating costs!--nbc

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Pictures.....

If you can take a couple of shots of the piping closer to the ceiling in front of the boiler, that will allow some decifering of this very important piping.

Rod

Pictures

Hi Dave-  No problem on the pictures. Just take them and post them and then if necessary, I can  "tweek " them to to improve the detail. It isn't easy to get good pictures in a minimally lit cellar.

As mentioned before, try to get in all the piping from floor to ceiling so we can trace it out. Take shots at different angles around the boiler as this will allow us to follow the piping where it disappears out of one photo into another. As I mentioned we can "zoom in" to get what detail we need.

In my previous post question I was trying to find a "starter point". The pictures are a good start. You might also want to trace out piping and draw up a rough schematic showing the steam mains and their approximate length and pipe size, where radiators are located etc.. as this I've found really helpful. You can also add the returns and the location of the main vents. I've attached pipe sizing chart. I found measuring the circumference and then consulting the chart, the easiest way to size an installed pipe.



If there was a list made of the Top Ten people in Steam Heating in the USA, "Boiler Pro" and "Steamhead" would be on that list so if you can get Dave Bunnell, "Boiler Pro", to take a look at the system you couldn't do better.

- Rod

ttekushan_3

From what I can see so far...

You need BoilerPro. Of course, I have no idea what authorization you need in order to retain his services. You are in the difficult situation of caring about the facility and viable historic structures / mechanicals when no one else seems to care. Everyone else just wants to "plug something in" and be done with it. Correct me if I'm reading too much into your situation.



From what I see, the near boiler piping is incorrect. What you have there is a situation where the steam bull-noses together at the center of the header. The EQ is outside the direction of the flow of steam. This arrangement offers no steam-drying ability. The rust stains at the radiator vents provide witness to this.



Furthermore, the amount of water line surging you observe is excessive for a W-M PEG boiler. New boiler piping work introduces contaminants to the water's surface and causes this condition. It would not surprise me in the least if this trouble existed to some extent since that boiler's installation, as surface contamination will not leave the boiler by itself.



The ceiling fin-tube is amusing. Originally, a radiator may have been hung from the ceiling. Radiators radiate! Fin-tube doesn't. It merely bakes the ceiling and throws no radiant energy downward. Amusing, but not your big problem here.



Also check that radiator valves are fully open, not partially.



As an advocate for preservation and conservation myself ( embodied energy and all), You are doing the right thing, as implementing the solutions you find here will get the system to function correctly and save a tremendous amount of fuel.



edit: PS start at the boiler room and then move up in altitude to valves and radiator vent placement.

Volvoguy87

Boiler piping is iffy at best.

You're right Terry,



The header is all wrong with the main coming from the middle.  One of the pipes from the boiler also does an odd zig-zag on its way up.  I still haven't been able to get back into the house yet, but I should be able to tomorrow.  There is a board meeting this coming weekend and I hope to have a mini-report ready to give them so they might consider rectifying the problems.



Might the wet steam contribute to the occasional water hammer?



Thanks a bunch,

Dave

ttekushan_3

water hammer yes.

Now, you might have legitimate issues like pipe pitch or poor return flow, etc that can cause water hammer, but yes, all that wet steam will cause it in places that would ordinarily operate quietly. Furthermore, wet steam can cause strange heat distribution issues. One clue is "panting" radiator vents, whereby the air is expelled and then pulled back into the vent. Air pushes out of the vent then is quickly drawn back, then a pause, and then a repeat. Usually there are two steps forward and one step back and eventually the radiator heats. This effect can be so bad that hardly any heat reaches the radiators on the line in question before the boiler shuts off. Uninsulated mains can create the same problem, as water moves in wave in the supply lines. If the waves get large enough to form complete "slugs" of water in the lines, then your problem transforms into water hammer.



I can't prove it, but I think when there are two branches to a main, that the panting alternates between them. Perhaps others have tried to determine if this happens, though there really isn't any point in finding out.

Volvoguy87

I finally got a few more shots.

Photo #1:

Working from Right to Left:



At the boiler:



A. Pipe down to low-water float chamber and water inlet.

B. Steam pipe from boiler.

C. Steam pipe from header to mains and equalizer.

D. The other steam pipe from the boiler (has pressure relief valve at the top).



At the mains, from pipe C on the above list:



The Equalizer tees off of the pipe ant a downward angle, turns, and can be seen joining the Hartford Loop.



The pipe teeing off and passing over the equalizer is the main serving the front of the house.



The original pipe continues to become the main serving the back of the house.



Both mains are nearly equal length (within about 2' of each other).  The mains are all sloped away from the boiler, draining the condensate in this 1-pipe system in parallel flow with the steam all the way to the wet return.





Photo #2:

A better view of how the equalizer and mains separate and the location of the Hartford Loop.



Just an odd fact, this building was originally on the campus steam system and had no boiler of its own.



Okay, what do you think is wrong in these pictures and why?  I'm putting together some recommendations for the board t consider at their meeting this coming weekend.  I would love for them to vote in favor of rectifying the problems in this system and getting a more-efficient and better performing system.

Dave

Rod

Thoughts from the Latest Pictures

Hi Dave- Thanks for the pictures .They are a big help and confirm what was already thought. The near boiler piping is a mess! If you don't already have one I think one of the first things you should do is get the manufacturer's I&O manual (Installation & Operation.) These are usually available from the manufacturer's website. They contain piping diagrams and I doubt if you will find any of the recommended configurations is any way near what you have. Having the manual should also help you document the problem.

Deficiencies:

1. The steam streams from the risers coming out of the boiler oppose one another and the resulting collision results in water being drawn into the steam steam. (see diagram Page 51 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating) I have also attached a diagram from the Peerless Steam Survey Manual that may be of help to you.

2. There is no real header. The idea of having a header is to dry the steam by separating out the water from the steam and returning it via the equalizer. The piping leading down on the far right of the picture is sort of an equalizer but the Hartford loop should have been attached to this rather than where it is now attached.

3. The Safety Valve- It should be on the boiler and should have a pipe that leads any released steam away to safe area. Usually these are piped down to about 10 inches off the floor. I can't imagine that it was tested often up where it is now located.

4. Insulation- From practical experience I know insulating your steam near boiler piping makes a big difference. Here is an article by Dan on insulation. http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes

5.You also want to get the boiler carefully inspected by a steam pro. There is no sense in going to the trouble of fixing the piping to this boiler if the boiler is unserviceable

I hope this helps you in documenting some of the problems. Getting the water out of the steam is important as dry steam is more efficent (Page 39 - "The Lost Art...") and you will need a properly configured header to accomplish this.

- Rod

Volvoguy87

Thanks.

I have the full steam set of books by Mr. Holohan, including Greening Steam at my disposal and you're right about the plumbing.  It is a textbook example of how not to plum a boiler.



Today I repacked 3 radiator valves.  They are no longer leaking and are functioning as they should.



Upon further inspection, the kitchen radiator (on an uninsulated branch at the end of a main) is panting.  There are other radiators that may be panting, depending on how long a cycle panting constitutes.  The vent may blow air for 20 seconds or more, then pause, then blow more air.  The main vents are inoperative at this point, and likely undersized given contemporary standards.  I've read in the "Pocketful of Steam Problems With Solutions" that I can remove the main vents and boil them for an hour in vinegar.  Unless the board decides to fix the problems (somewhat doubtful) fixing the old main vents may be the best thing I can do.  Are there any disadvantages to boiling in vinegar?  Also, when reinstalling vents, should I use Teflon tape or pipe thread paste?



The more I learn, the more this becomes one big hot mess to be sorted out,

Dave



PS:  One radiator valve had such a severe leak through the packing for such a long time that a large spot of efflorescence appeared on the brick exterior of the house.  I'll try to get a pic of it to show what a bad leak can do in an extreme case.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Hi..Looks like some progress is being made....

I was out looking at another poorly functioning steam system in Batavia, so I didn't have time to respond to your pics. (Misery loves company!)

As has been said, the boiler piping is wrong, however, it could be even more wrong....the drain to the hartford loop in the front of the picture is probably helping remove some of the water from the steam.  If the risers are 3 inch and the water is kept clean,  you may be able to get away with the piping if we do some tweaking to the boiler.   That boiler can make pretty dry steam without a header depending on the btu input, the riser sizes and height.   I'd try to get the boiler water as clean as possible...crystal clear if you can.

I would use teflon tape when reinstalling the vents, it makes them easier to remove for the next guy. 

Good job on the radiator valves.  Keeping the system leak free will help keep the boiler cleaner and the steam better.

Volvoguy87

Back from a quick trip.

Sorry for the lull in this thread, but I had to go out of town and just returned.  I left a brief report for the board on my way out and they're like deer in the headlights.  Fortunately, they agree that something has to be done. 



Boilerpro, may I give you another call?  If so, when would be a good time?



Clank clank, hiss hiss, oh what a system it is,

Dave

Volvoguy87

Leaking radiator.

Thus far, the 3 valves I repacked are still holding.  Now I'm trying to tackle the radiator that's leaking between sections.  There are spare radiators on campus, but none will fit beneath the window so I might have to see about fixing this one.  It's like the last one pictured several posts above (the white one, not the silver). 



It's leaking at he bottom between the last and second-to-last sections next to the steam pipe connection.  This is a 1922-ish hot water radiator and is held together with tie rods with nuts at the ends.  How miserable a job is it to remove the end-section to replace the push nipples?  I've never done this before so any tips regarding tools, technique, etc. would be much appreciated, both for dismantling it now and putting it back together later.



Also, Boilerpro, I've been trying to get in touch with you to go over some of this system's issues.  I hope I left the message at the right phone number.  I flushed the boiler like you recommended and got the water clean.  Not much has improved, unfortunately, regarding performance.  i think some additives may be necessary, given the local water supply's poor quality and high mineral content.



Thanks y'all and have a pleasant evening,

Dave

Magnehelic

"indirect water heater"

I love the picture that shows the clawfoot tub behind the boiler.  I bet back in the 20's people actually took a bath in there too.  Nice and toasty! 8-)