Up and Running - Howell, MI

ceikey

I've been posting since last fall when my old,old boiler started acting up. I've had lots of help on the wall and from Steamhead and Dave Bunnell through email. I decided to leave the pipe coil shown and see how everything was working before making a change there.



I just got a Slant/Fin installed and my wife couldn't be happier. You know how women are with being cold. Anyways, below are a couple pics of the install. Let me know what you think. I have some questions too...



The boiler was skimmed a few times through the relief valve at the top of the boiler. Slant/Fin's manual says to clean the boiler with caustic soda also before startup. What do you guys recommend for startup? Slant/Fin also has the easy skim port, but not sure if that is as effective. They also recommend a sodium chromate solution for corrosion control when the boiler is filled. What about this?

Next question is what thermostat do you recommend? I want a programmable one.

Last question is easy....what type of insulation do you recommend on the mains?

gerry gill

why skim through the relief valve,

when slant fin has the best skim passage on the market.

crash2009

Insulation

Call Mike over at Mechanical Insulation in Redford, Mi..  He sells the Zeston 2000 system.  Its pretty easy to put on.  I regret that I didnt use 1.5" , or 2" on the boiler though.  1 " is plenty for the mains.  Mike was very helpful explaining how to put it on.  If you don't mind tell him Ken from Ann Arbor gave you his number.  Mike 313-592-4550



Where are your main vents? 

ceikey

Main vent

is at the end of the dry return. You can see it in my pics going up at the tee where the dry return drips back in. It's a combo 1-pipe, 2-pipe system. Here's my schematic...



Thanks for the insulation tip, Crash. I will definitely swing by there on Monday.

Gerry, the installer used the relief valve probably because that's what they're used to doing. I planned on using the skim port, but thought I would ask if it works well since the installer didn't use it. I wanted to let it run a few days then skim again.

Rod

Congratulations!

Congratulations! It looks like a great improvement over what you has before.  The header looks great!

I looked over your piping layout and it would seem to me that a Hoffman 4A might be a bit on the small side for a main vent. A Gorton # 1 has 3 times the venting capacity and a Gorton # 2 almost 10 times the venting capacity.  You might want to time how quickly it takes steam to reach the main vent and if you feel it is too slow add some more venting capacity.

You'll find that insulation will make a noticeable improvement. I went for years with a bare header and insulating it made a big difference in performance.  It must be nice to know that even if we have a hard winter that you will be nice and comfortable!

- Rod

theboilermaster

dry steam

I would have came out of the boiler with a longer riser. The longer the better. The key to dry steam

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Ahh.....

I see you found someone close to do a decent job.  Gerry is right...Slantfin porbably has the best skimming set up in the industry and that is one of the reasons I use them.  The fuss they make about it in the sales lit is a reality.  I wouldn't worry about the  heigth of the riser, the unique design of the Slantfin end casting seems to yield exceptionally dry steam right from the boiler, so the riser and header have very little work to do.  I am abaout 95% sure you need more venting for the main....the vent you have on there vents about the same as a large radiator vent.

ceikey

More venting

I will definitely upgrade the main vent. Thanks for the pointer.



Last night I turned down the thermostat and in the morning when the boiler first came on to heat the house from 62 to 70 I had some hammer. It hadn't done that before when keeping the house at 70 during the day. It seems the last radiator off the main (which is a 2-pipe) is getting steam through the return too. It was hot on both ends, but the middle never heated up. The hammer was right in the main before that last riser to this radiator so I'm guessing they are related. I will do the insulation and main vent first to see if this helps. What do you guys think...could there be something else causing this?

-Chris

crash2009

Your diagram

has 3 two-pipe rads.  Which one are you asking about 1, 2, or 3 ?

ceikey

#2

#2

crash2009

This is just a hunch

from a non-professional.  Have you tried putting a different radiator vent on rad 2 ?  or swapping the vents from 1 and 2?

ceikey

I tried

a plug in frustration, but not another vent yet. I will keep that in mind after I get a larger main vent. It seems the larger main vent could help this if the steam in the dry return is not able to push the air out fast enough through the small main vent. Maybe it is finding it's way to another vent and it happens to be this one in this rad??? Not sure if this makes sense to anyone else but me though!

crash2009

With

that new boiler, your steam is going places it hasn't been in a while.  I was reading a pretty good thread on water hammer just now.  here it is http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129186/Radiator-making-banging-noise

Steamhead

Sounds like

you need some more eyes on this thing. My offer stands. 

ceikey

Main vent first

Thanks as always Steamhead.



I am going to upgrade the main vent and check the timing on the whole system and post all of that. If the problem is not obvious by then, we can talk about your offer.



-Chris

ceikey

By the way

I just read a review about Gorton #2's notoriously not closing all the way and hissing. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there another good main vent to look at? I was just about to order the G2 when I read this. Thnaks.

-Chris

crash2009

G2

I got a bad one last winter.  It was stuck open.  Pex Supply delightfully sent me another.  Order 2 and send one back.   

ceikey

Hammer

I think I found the source of the hammer! There is little to no pitch on the section of the main that leads to the riser to the second floor and radiator #2. I'm sure there is some water sitting in that line. I think I'm going to have to replace the 2 risers to get that section pitched up. I'll get back to you guys on this after I decide how to get it done.



This doesn't explain the steam through the return on rad #2 though. Is it possible the steam in the dry return is going towards the vent in this rad instead of the main vent since the main vent is undersized? I have my Gorton #2 on order and some Hoffman 1A adjustables for the rads. This particular rad seems to be a little slow to heat also. Not sure if cranking up the vent will get steam in through the supply side quicker and help prevent the steam through the return also???

-Chris

Steamhead

They have it straightened out

some of the parts that make up the #2 are made by outside suppliers, and one of them had some quality-control issues. The latest batch we got from Gorton are fine so far. Good thing, I don't know what I'd do without the #2!

Steamhead

There should be

a water seal to prevent this. If the returns from all your 2-pipe rads drop into a wet return, that's all you should need. 

ceikey

Like page 125

in the lost art, right? That would be a lot of additional piping and I would end up with that wet return leg running all through my basement and in the way of things unless I bury it....Ugh!



We've talked about loop seals before. This seems like it might work better for me. See my attached schematics of the current system and redrawn with loop seals at two-pipe rads #2 and #3. Do I also need a loop seal at two-pipe rad #1 to keep steam from entering the dry return at every rad? Will this work to use the existing dry return to drip everything back into the wet return by the boiler?



Then how do I finish the piping at the end of the main near rad #3? Is it drawn correctly in the schematic?



My main is pitched back to the boiler so all my one-pipe rads work like a counter-flow system and should not be affected by these changes.

JStar

How about this?

Have the main end in its own dry return back to the boiler.



You could also install a loop seal off the end of the same main. Personally, if I can avoid trapping return water, I will. You'll form a water seal near the boiler anyway.



EDIT: Also remove the original main vent on the existing return.

ceikey

Steam in Dry Return

Wouldn't steam still get into the dry return through the rads though? That is the problem I have now at rad #2. I guess I'm not sure if it is coming through rad #3 into the dry return and then over to rad #2 or from the end of the main into the dry return and then over to rad #2. I'll have to check next time the heat is on.

JStar

Perhaps.

By installing inlet orifices, you can limit the amount of steam going into the return. They are a lot less labor intensive than installing radiator traps or loop seals. You may even try that first, before doing any major pipe work in the basement. Install the orifices. Plug the radiator vents. You can always change it back in less time than it took to install. I would still do something about the way the end of the main connects with radiator #3. 

ceikey

What Would You Do...

OK so I've got a pro coming on Wed to start the piping changes I need. Here is the way I see it from all the info and expertise you guys have shared with me (I know I'm not an expert so let me know if I am missing something). Ultimately what I want is for this system to work correctly and quietly. It's not too bad at this point, just need to deal with the steam in the dry return at rad #2 and the hammer in the main at rad #2. The hammer is likely the pitch problem in the main as I mentioned in a previous post so that will be the first thing I fix. The rest of the system seems to be running pretty well and once I insulate the mains and tune the rad vents it should be better yet.



Option 1: Install inlet orifices, remove the rad vents on the 2-pipe rads. Remove the pipe coil and put the loop seal in at the end of the main, put a main vent in before the loop seal and plug the existing vent in the dry return.

Questions: Is it ok run the loop seal into the existing dry return or will the dry return need some changes?



Option 1B: Same as option 1, except run the end of the main into a separate dry return as suggested by JStar in previous post, including a new vent on the new dry return and plugging the existing vent in the dry return.



Option 2: Turn it into a 2-pipe-air-vent system as suggested in my posting last year...  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/127558/Help-finding-professional-near-Detroit-MI   (see the end of the post).

Questions: Will I need loop seals at each 2-pipe rad and will I be able to use the existing dry return or will it need some changes?



I'm looking for advice on which is the best way to go to make this thing work correctly. Now that I have the new boiler I want to make this system hummmmm so please let me know what you guys think!!! Thanks.

-Chris

ceikey

I just want to mention

that the pro I am working with is only spinning pipe for me. He is working off my direction. Just want to make sure I didn't violate any "Rules of the Wall" by asking your advice with a different pro involved.



By the way, I tried something today...There is a valve in the dry return just after the pipe coil, but before the rad #3 return. I closed it. I'm guessing this will only work for a little while because the pipe coil will eventually fill with lots of condensate and start hammering, but rad #2 did not get steam in the return. However, rad #1 let steam into the dry return and it started going towards rads #2 and #3. The heat kicked off before it got there, but I guess this answers my question about needing loop seals at each 2-pipe rad.



So will inlet orifices slow down the heating of the rads?

-Chris

Steamhead

I'd use the loop seals

instead of orifices. The reason is, with orifices you generally size an orifice at every rad to the same specification, so they will all heat up the same. If you're only using orifices on some rads, they may heat up differently enough that the system will go out of balance.



I'm not saying orifices wouldn't have any chance of working on your system. But in a mixed 1-pipe/2-pipe air-vent system, I'd prefer a more-positive way of keeping steam out of the dry return. Loop seals have no moving parts to wear out, and they don't pass air into the dry return, so that would be my choice.

ceikey

Thanks

Steamhead. I really do appreciate all the help from you and everyone else who has posted. If it wasn't for you guys and this site, I would have abandoned steam and spent a boat load of money converting to something else because of the difficulty in finding expertise.



I'll let everyone know how the piping changes go...