Gas Hot Water Boiler or Gas Furnace? Utility Separation

Bake

Hello.  I have a 2 flat building that is about 60 years old...maybe a little older.  Each unit has 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, living room, dining room and  enclosed back porch.  Each unit is about 800 sq. ft.  The basement is finished...as I use it to stay overnight from taking long drives home.  The building currently has a hot water gas boiler with the older cast iron radiators.  I am looking to separate the heat and place that responsibility on the tenant.  I have been told that I can keep the current boiler for the first floor and install either another gas hot water boiler or a gas furnace for the second floor. 

If I choose to install a furnace on the 2nd floor, the only place to set it is on the enclosed back porch...which is insulated.  The contractor would have to get through the brick separating the porch and run the duct work over head.  Can the return be placed on the enclosed back porch or any area that is about 10 x 12?  Or does the return have to be in an open area? The porch has a door and on the other side of the furnace is a bedroom with a door.

If I choose to install the boiler, the contractor stated that he can do most of his work from the basement.  Therefore not making holes in the walls for the duct work and vents....less clean up and patching time. He stated that he would run new copper pipes to the 2nd floor.

Can you tell me:

which system is the better solution? which system would be the least expensive to install? which system provides the better heat? which system is more efficient regarding monthly expense?  Please provide me with pros and cons.

I thank you in advance

CMadatMe

What about

Leave the boiler and install Btu meters on each zone and call it a day. You can atleast here in my market bill the tenants "legally." Spend the money on upgrading the boiler or the buildings heat loss.

Bake

Boiler/Furnace

I am in the Chicago market.  What market allows you to bill the tenant after install btu meters for zoning?  Thanks for the advice. Never heard of that.

CMadatMe

BTU Meters

Please see the attachment should be able to help you out.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

?????

From what have heard is that most US governing bodies are way behind on this topic.  Btu meters are used all over the world, but seem to be kept a secret here.  The only thing to do here is to go to the City and find out what they say and why.  I have some installed in Ottawa IL, but none in Chicago yet.   

 Hot water or steam radiator heat is now almost the universal heating system in the world due to its inherently better efficiency and comfort over forced air. Most of the rest of the world converted over in the 1970's after the oil embargo.    In addition, equipment life is typically 2 to 3 times longer for hot water or steam.  Going to seperate gas supplies will increase everyones costs, as the monthly charges go up for the building.  In addition, efficiency usually drops substancially, because it it not nearly as cost effective to install high efficiency equipment at lighter heating loads, so everyone ends up with minimum efficiency equipment that uses 30% more fuel and delivers less comfort. ( I doubt you will be spending the extra thousands of dollars to install a 95% efficient furnace to heat $800 sq ft).   In addition, there is very little equipment that has low enough capacity to heat smaller spaces efficiently, so oversized equipment gets used, dropping efficiency more.

In the end, it is likely that you will pay about as much to heat a single unit as it would cost to heat both, especially when you take into account installing 2 to 3 furnaces or more for every boiler installed over 25 year period, the extra maintenance costs and about a 10 fold increase in electrical usage to operate the system.

You can eliminate abuse by the tenants (leaving windows open, etc) by installing an outdoor reset system that automatically limits the heat avialable anywhere on the system based on outdoor temperature.   This in itself can reduce fuel usage substancially.  Overheating can be addressed by installing Thermostatic radiator valves to allow thermostatic control right at a radiator, creatintg more fuel savings.

rlaggren

What BTU meter products

Boilerpro



I'm in the Chicago area and face a similar problem; in my case the units are larger, say about 1500sf, there's a finished basement as well though it doesn't need to meet residence standards. I'd like to look at what products are available and then talk to the city and county guys and see what the rules are. Hopefully a little knowledge would help speed the process and let me sidestep some of the knee jerk "no's" from the bureaucracy, get to the real sticking points.



What was your experience in Ottawa? What type of building, ownership, etc? What did the job look like to the authorities and what were their concerns? IOW, how did they get it passed?



Thanks for any info.





Rufus

Mr. Norm

I would love to hear from a Chicago contractor about these issues.

Perferably someone working on the northside. The only person listed in the 'Find a Contractor' function is 2 hours away and won't travel that distance for simple matainence tasks. Not that I blame them ;-)

I do know that the Chicago code and legal requirements are considered 'tenant friendly' and tend to be very restrictive toward the landlord.

 

Jean-David Beyer

only person listed in the 'Find a Contractor' function is 2 hours away and won't travel

Are you sure about that? Did  you look at



http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/Boiler-Professionals-Inc ?

It would seem to me he is expert enough to talk to in any case.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

More Info

Well, the world it a little different out there.  Basically the authorities don't know and the tenants aren't complaining...their costs are looking to be very low to heat their 1500 sq ft units with a MOD-con and spray foam in the ceilings. 



The building has a single owner, 4-1500 sq ft residential units above (3 standard and one furnished for rental by the week or month) and commercial and restaurant space below in a downtown location.  The structure is about 150 years old or more that had gravity hot water radiators and an individual boiler (in the dining room of each unit)  installed around the turn of the century for the second floor units. The commercial units look like they had either hot water or steam boilers tied into forced air heating coils for each unit.   The second floor had been unused and one unit inaccessible for probably 40 years (they had to knock a hole in the masonry wall to get to it).  A single mod con boiler was installed, with indirect hot water, and new piping run out to each unit (still in process).  The couple of forced air furnaces installed later have been retrofited with hot water coils and the chimneys abandoned and/or used for raceways for new electrical and communications.

I used Istec btu meters

Here's a pic.



BTW I serve Chicago, especially for steam, and have worked in Rogers Park, Lincoln Park and Beverly recently and will be in Beverly on a couple of Steam consulting calls next week.

rlaggren

Neat, neat, neat

That utility room looks like somebody had lots of fun. And that building sounds like somebody should write its story!



OK. So the technology is working because the social engineering was done well. Often the only way it happens. I think I'll feel around carefully here (Evanston) and see what I can of the official perspective.



Do I understand the setup? The "energy" runs all originate in the utility room off the manifold so all the BTU sensors can be installed right there. The sensor would be a temperature/flow metering device for the pipes and a watt/hour meter for the electrical (if installed). That would cover it, I think.



Got one question on the piping: Why the copper? I can see connecting to a copper supply or running all in copper but you seem to have a mix there with black iron. Oh...  I bet you're planning on adding all the new stuff in copper. And the iron is structural. I take it the iron and copper don't fight because the oxygen content goes to  nothing?



I have your business bookmarked.



Cheers, Rufus

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

You got it

about the energy monitoring.  The steel makes it easier to install the threaded sensor wells and is easier and cheaper than the repitous soldering up of a whole bunch of fittings.  Also, if you use high quality fittings and nipples, everything comes out nice and straight.  There is no dielectric action between the steam and copper because air is not present inside the connections. 

If you approach you local officials, I'd suggest you talk to a manufacturer of the meters so you can have a list of other jurisdictions that allow thier use.

Mr. Norm

Time to revise the copy?

I looked at Boiler Pro's page, which said he was located in Northwestern Il. That is hundreds of miles from Chicago. Then I noticed that his phone number began with 312, which is the downtown Chicago area code.

Perhaps he meant Northeastern Il. instead?

I will give him a call. Thanks.

rlaggren

Right good idea - decision makers love company

I'll have supporting info available when I talk with them - likely start by chatting informally with a couple of the inspectors to get a feel for what matters in their office. The immediate issue I see really is not so much a technical one (beyond reasonable assurance of accuracy and such) as a legal one; I have my doubts this will fly in my situation. I have a HUD Section 8 tenant (an excellent tenant, by the by) and the legal specs state that in order to bill the tenant for utilities they must be separately metered - no ad hoc or percentage allocation allowed. Now the question will be whether HUD will accept inline BTU measurements as "separate metering". The city also has a touchy-feelie approach to tenants so perhaps they will also want a say-so, but HUD is the real "immovable object".



Thanks for all your info.



Rufus