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vapor heating system with naturally induced vacuum

Hi, everyone:



I’m not a P.E. in HVAC, and my approach on the steam heating system from a different viewpoint may be because of this. My background in Petroleum Refining and Chemical Engineering helped me get a clear understanding of crucial details. I apologize if some HVAC technical terms are not used properly.



Taught by Dan Holohan's book "Lost art of steam heating",  I started by identifying steam heating system problems in my own house and evolved into developing vacuum system with naturally induced vacuum - abstract below (article is attached).



Special thanks to Frank “Steamhead” Wilsey for editing the article and verifying that it fit physical laws and no Perpetuum Mobile was invented.



Igor Zhadanovsky, Newton, MA



Abstract



Compared to the usual steam system running at one or two pounds of pressure or so, a vapor/vacuum (negative pressure) steam system in general saves fuel because the water in the boiler will turn to steam at a lower temperature. Moreover, efficiency can be improved by regulating the vapor’s temperature in the system depending on the outside temperature.  This technique alone

boosted fuel savings by twenty to twenty seven percent in recent real life

projects. All modern vapor systems employ two pipe designs.



Building retrofits is one of the largest energy saving opportunities today. In many old buildings steam systems are being converted into hot water heating systems. A hot water system’s operating pressure is much higher than that of a steam system, so old piping, radiators and boilers may leak as a result. Anticipated fuel savings of around twenty to twenty seven percent is attributed mostly to the replacement or modification of old boilers.



A new technology has been re-introduced - vapor heating with naturally induced vacuum - VHSNIV.  It can be employed to single pipe design as well to resolve inborn problem – building overheating; even steam distribution potentially save up to 21% of fuel cost. VHSNIV employs no vacuum pump, simplifies operation and maintenance. Single- and two-pipe steam systems can be converted into vapor heating systems with significantly less cost and risk than into hot water systems. Possible applications include, but are not limited to, new residential and commercial buildings, existing steam system retrofits, steam district heating systems, high rise buildings, and CHP.  Copper tubing and lightweight panel radiators are implemented instead of heavy cast iron radiators and piping in order to reduce VHSNIV new installations time, cost, and heat losses.

Comments

  • and what's wrong with perpetual motion?

    Igor,[not the hurricane], my grandfather designed, and had made numerous perpetual motion machines, or as i like to call them, "gravity engines". it kept him occupied, and created employment for the sheet-metal smiths making the prototypes.--nbc
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,077
    Interesting.

    I once called a hydronic water radiator manufacturer and asked them if i could use their product with steam..their answer was, ''well,,it will last for awhile''..i said what does ''for awhile'' mean..they said the unit will rust shut after a few years..the passages were to narrow for steam..did something change or was what i was told just yahooy?
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,710
    ??????????

    where was perpetual motion mentioned? 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,710
    edited September 2010
    Check this out

    www.steamradiators.com



    This has some serious potential, Gerry. One of the objections to using natural vacuum on traditional oil- or gas-fired steam systems is that the burner shuts off before all the air is out. The resulting vacuum expands the air and blocks the steam.



    But with a mini-tube system like yours, there isn't much air to exhaust, is there?



    Everything old is new again, and the Vapor State still rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • and no Perpetuum Mobile was invented

    either this latin prase refers to perpetual motion, or some form of reinventing the wheel!--nbc
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    edited September 2010
    and what's wrong with perpetual motion? Open in Pop-Up OK Cancel Next Ignore Ignore All Done Upload Cancel OK Cancel Format Help Preview Close This test area can be formatted with BBCode, a simple markup language for designating r

    Nicolas, Perpetuum Mobile was mentioned to indicate that proposed technology corresponds physical laws and common sense. 

    BTW. USPTO stop considering patent applications on Perpetuum Mobile long ago ...
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    Interesting.

    Rust is formed when air (oxygen) contact metal. Very little air dissolved in hot water, so corrosion is limited. Contrary, in steam heating fresh air is sucked in every heating cycle to increase corrosion.

    In vacuum systems fresh air (oxygen) access into system is very limited (ideally zero), so corrosion is minimal.

    Thanks, good question   
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,077
    I'm confused..

    Are we talking about air vents with check valves or are we talking vacuum pumps..or both? Sounds like an interesting idea..has this actually been applied to a one pipe retrofit? I guess it would be like a paul system then huh?
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,077
    I hadn't considered that..

    thanks...
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    I'm confused.. - answer

    Yes, there are similarities to Paul system

    http://chestofbooks.com/architecture/Cyclopedia-Carpentry-Building-7-10/Paul-Vacuum-System.html.

     But there is no vacuum pump or steam ejector to produce vacuum, individual returns into receiving tank and pumping into the boiler, etc.

    On prototype one pipe system ( one radiator connected to boiler by 0.5" copper tube) negative 8psi vacuum was reproducibly formed and utilized, - please, see p.10

    http://www.districtenergy.org/assets/pdfs/2010AnnualConference/PROCEEDINGS/TUESDAY-TRACK-B/5B1IgorZhadanovskyIDEA2010PresentationforPostingrev.pdf 



    Waiting for heating system to see results on one pipe 50++ old  steam system in my house after conversion into VHSNIV (cost me ~$150, plus my time)
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    edited March 2011
    Looking for a demo site - NYC/NY state.

    Hundred years old single–pipe steam heating system was converted into a vacuum system with naturally induced vacuum. System include original Ideal boiler and 6 cast iron radiators to heat 1100 sq. ft apartment; conversion cost -$450, excluding labor (please, see my previous posts for details).



    After four months in operation, comparison is made for performance before and after conversion - attached is a graph of therms per day usage. Comparison is done for winter months with similar average temperatures (this winter months - after conversion and 2009-2010 -before conversion). Occupation and heating pattern of apartment didn’t change in last 10 years.

    Therms usage are from NGRID bills, average monthly temperatures are from weather station database.

    Savings are in 9-16% range. I would expect more improvements for bigger system

    (with uneven steam distribution and more overheating).



     I’m looking for a house or small/mid-size building with single–pipe steam heating system in NYC/NY state. System to be converted into a vacuum system with naturally induced vacuum and observed  to verify savings. Established plumbing/automation and energy analysis/audit companies indicated interest to participate in the study.

    This is research project where up to 80% of conversion cost will be reimbursed to building owner. Other terms can be negotiated.



    Please, let me know if interested. 

    Thanks,

    Igor
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    vacuum system modifications

    what an interesting experiment. i wish i were closer and could participate, it awakens my grandfather's genes [see gravity engine]!--nbc
  • Boston_2
    Boston_2 Member Posts: 107
    Is there any way

    To create a vapor system using existing piping? Or does all the piping need to be removed?  If so, it would seem that this is more practical in new installations.
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    edited March 2011
    Is there any way - Looking for a demo site - NYC/NY state.

    The original 100 years piping was utilized without any changes. I've spent some time to fix leaks (most on valves). One leak on radiator was epoxy glued (thanks to advances in chemistry :). Works great.

    Actually, with old inefficient steam system retrofit options are pretty limited. It's either conversion into hot water -30 -100 psi or into vacuum - negative 7-11 psi. Both options implies leaks fixing, but later one is less demanding and risky. Again, any leakage in hot water system cause expensive repairs, in vacuum system - no damage but system performance would deteriorate.

    Last option - to completely replace old steam system. Here again, good alternative exist for closed vacuum system operating like branched heat pipe. But it's another story. 
  • Boston_2
    Boston_2 Member Posts: 107
    Little confused

    So i read through your documentation, but i am still not 100% clear on the process.  My assumpion is, all the radatior valve are removed and any and all leaks are fixed.  What other costs/ improvements are made?
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    Little confused

    Again, original piping wasn't changed at all. Main concern/care - to get system leak tight. Radiators vent valves were modified to lock the system from air intake,  plus minor changes to boiler controller - but  it's proprietary details. 
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    have you studied this?

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/131555/New-steam-mini-tube-system-installed-in-my-own-house-Iron-Fireman-style#p1225216

    this would be a good combination for vacuum, as all the joints are new.--nbc
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    have you studied this?

    Yap, I did contact Gerry Gill some time ago. No response ...
  • Kevin_in_Denver_2
    Kevin_in_Denver_2 Member Posts: 588
    Sunnovations

    Igor,



    I posted a patent on a solar system that uses a geyser pump and naturally inducible vacuum. Apparently they developed an air vent like you propose.



    http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/7869/7798140_Adaptive_self_pumping_solar_hot.pdf



    The thread discussing that system, with the manufacturer chiming in, is at

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/135984/Passive-Pumping-Part-II
    Superinsulated Passive solar house, Buderus in floor backup heat by Mark Eatherton, 3KW grid-tied PV system, various solar thermal experiments
  • izhadano
    izhadano Member Posts: 90
    Sunnovations

    Kevin:

    thanks for info. I'm not a big fan of Solar systems - energy is not available 24/7/365, have to be stored, etc.

    Geothermal (not heat pumps) is much more reliable solution. Steam is a byproduct; here my system can be readiliy implemented.

    Igor
  • Kevin_in_Denver_2
    Kevin_in_Denver_2 Member Posts: 588
    edited April 2011
    I have a building

    Igor,



    I'd love to convert my 22 unit apartment building to to VHSNIV.

    It's in Denver though.



    The vacuum part of it is what eluded me in a previous train of thought on the subject:

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/127890/High-Efficiency-Steam-boiler-thought-experiment
    Superinsulated Passive solar house, Buderus in floor backup heat by Mark Eatherton, 3KW grid-tied PV system, various solar thermal experiments
This discussion has been closed.