Purchasing new steam boiler, need some input...

PoliteNYC

Hi, My currently installed Burnham gas boiler (model# IN7 Input 210,000 BTU) needs to be replaced because of cracked sections and subsequent rusting of the burner assembly. The boiler is oversized for my needs and the plumbing contractor has recommended I downsize to around 140,00 BTUs, which I have no problems with.



My questions:

1) The contractor has recommended that I go with a Crown boiler (BSI138) as opposed to getting another Burnham boiler (IN5). He stated that the Burnham boiler uses rubber gaskets, which get brittle and fail over time. In my research, nowhere in the Burnham literature does it mention rubber gaskets for their Independence line of boilers. He mentioned that Crown boilers use a rope type gasket  that is less prone to fail. (I could find no mention of rope gaskets in my research of Crown literature, either.) I do know that Weil-Mclain boilers use a rubber gasket and have been warned to steer clear of that particular manufacturer. I'm presuming that the contractor has confused Burnham with Weil-Mclain. Any input as to the pros/cons of these particular two manufacturers would be appreciated.



2) The current boiler I have utilizes a standing pilot light, and I've had to replace the thermocoupler two times since I've owned the building (6 years). Would it be prudent for me spend a few extra dollars and order the new boiler with an electronic ignition? Would doing that also save me a few pennies on my gas bill since I would not have a constant pilot flame lit even when the boiler is not in use?



3)Since it was water the low water cutoff probe that failed in my existing boiler, I'm particularly concerned about this function. I see that the Burnham IN5 has an option of the standard LWCO probe (McDonnell & Miller PS-802) or for a few dollars more, a float LWCO device (McDonnell & Miller 67). Is there any advantage to the float as opposed to the regular probe? (Also noticed that Crown does not offer the 'float' option.)



4) The differences I see between the IN5 and the BSI138:

BTU input:  IN5 - 140,000     BSI138 - 138,000

Heat exchanger warranty: IN5 - 10 yr.  BSI138 - 12 yr. (Is heat exchanger another term for the boiler sections?)

Price: IN5 is a few dollars more than the BSI138

Are there any other significant differences between these two models that I'm missing?



Thanks all for taking the time to read my essay!  LOL

gerry gill

The Burnham does NOT use rubber gaskets.

I personally feel the Burnham is the cadillac of boilers, which is why i put one in my house...automatic ignition is a better way to go..two low water cutoffs are also better than one..tho a removed and cleaned probe every year should suffice..

PoliteNYC

Thanks for weighing in...

Thanks Gerry,



I bought hot water Burnham boilers for my tenant apartments and they have been rock solid. I remember 6 years ago someone making a similar comment to yours about Burnham. And thanks for confirming about the gaskets, I didn't think the rubber gasket remark was valid.



The huge mistake I made was not getting the steam boiler serviced EVER since I moved in. (It was in the building when I bought it.) Yep, 6 years, no clean out, flushing out, or anything.  I'm sure the sediment build up buried the LWCO and rendered it inoperable. Totally my fault. (And I've religiously had yearly maintenance done on the three Burnham hot water boilers that I bought for the tenant apartments when I first

bought the building. Go figure my lack of logic.)



 Didn't know I could get TWO LWCO probes put in. Do you have an opinion on the LWCO probe vs. LWCO 'float' ?



Polite

kcopp

Did the heating contractor....

measure out all the radiators to find the EDR? I am suspect when a steam boiler is talked of in terms of BTU vs. EDR.

Crown is actually a division of Burnham/ US boiler. Make sure he follows the installation instructions. References are also good.

kpc

gerry gill

i personally like

the probe type better, but thats just my opinion.

Long Beach Ed

Iron Nipples

I'll second everything that Gerry said.  Burnham is one of two makers who still uses iron or steam push nipples between the boiler sections.  I feel they are superior to the rubber used by many others.  I install them in the buildings I own.  Great boilers from a great company.



Your thermocouples probably failed because they were improperly installed and overheated.  If they are installed with the very tip in the flame, they will fail.  Generally a thermocouple is more reliable than electronic ignition, though with much of the newer stuff being imported, you can toss a coin to figure out which will last longer.  The electronic ignition will save you some gas and may entitle you to a rebate from your gas supplier. 



Yes, the probe LWC must be kept clean.  A float type must be flushed weekly.  No matter which you use, it is good practice to check the water level weekly and replace any system components that would be responsible for high water consumption.  



I also like to install two low water cutoffs and a water meter on the feed line.  I've always preferred the float controls, but I'm starting to trust the electronic. 



Most important is that your boiler is properly sized to the connected radiators.  I would not trust the calculations given you by someone who told you Burnham boilers use rubber gaskets. 



Find another installer or do the calculations yourself. 

jpf321

happy to stop by

I'm happy to drop by and give you my $0.02 . And help you with an EDR calc and see if there is anything else you should be thinking about .. I've sent you an email directly, drop me a line.



jpf

PoliteNYC

EDR & posted pics

I just spent some time and took the EDR measurements. Measuring all the radiators in use (just on one floor of the building now) I get an total sq. ft. EDR of 177.5 and when multiplied by 240 (the steam rating) I get a grand total of 42,600 BTUs.  (Lord, I've been totally killing my gas bill the past few winters cranking the 210,00 BTU behemoth, UGH!)



Having this information in hand, now I think that the Burnham IN4 (105,000 BTU input) should be more than sufficient? Does anyone concur with this?



I do have another wrinkle I failed to mention in my original post. My steam furnace is actually set up for 'two-zone' operation (Sorry if I'm using incorrect terminology). I use steam radiators on the floor above the cellar, controlled by one digital thermostat, and there is a hot water return setup on the cellar floor using Slant/Fin MultiPak/80 baseboard, also controlled by it's own thermostat.



Question: Since the cellar is being heated via a by-product of the steam that's generated for the upstairs radiators, is it necessary to factor in any EDR for the cellar floor? Also, I have the baseboard element wrapped around the better part of three walls in the entire cellar, (since that's the coldest floor in the building) and it gets VERY warm down there when I call for heat.  I don't want to lose that if I get a smaller BTU furnace.



Here is a set of pics I just took an posted on my Flickr account, to give you kind gentlemen a visual of what I'm talking about:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/politeny/sets/72157624824674323/

(FYI: I added descriptions under most of the pics to help the narrative. I've also posed a question under a couple of them if someone wouldn't mind enlightening me.)



Thanks!

PoliteNYC

Sorry, I didn't know how to make this post at the bottom of the thread...

I just spent some time and took the EDR measurements. Measuring all the

radiators in use (just on one floor of the building now) I get an total

sq. ft. EDR of 177.5 and when multiplied by 240 (the steam rating) I get

a grand total of 42,600 BTUs.  (Lord, I've been totally killing my gas

bill the past few winters cranking the 210,00 BTU behemoth, UGH!)







Having this information in hand, now I think that the Burnham IN4

(105,000 BTU input) should be more than sufficient? Does anyone concur

with this?







I do have another wrinkle I failed to mention in my original post. My

steam furnace is actually set up for 'two-zone' operation (Sorry if I'm

using incorrect terminology). I use steam radiators on the floor above

the cellar, controlled by one digital thermostat, and there is a hot

water return setup on the cellar floor using Slant/Fin MultiPak/80

baseboard, also controlled by it's own thermostat.







Question: Since the cellar is being heated via a by-product of the steam

that's generated for the upstairs radiators, is it necessary to factor

in any EDR for the cellar floor? Also, I have the baseboard element

wrapped around the better part of three walls in the entire cellar,

(since that's the coldest floor in the building) and it gets VERY warm

down there when I call for heat.  I don't want to lose that if I get a

smaller BTU furnace.







Here is a set of pics I just took an posted on my Flickr account, to give you kind gentlemen a visual of what I'm talking about:







http://www.flickr.com/photos/politeny/sets/72157624824674323/



(FYI: I added descriptions under most of the pics to help the narrative.

I've also posed a question under a couple of them if someone wouldn't

mind enlightening me.)







Thanks!

PoliteNYC

JPF...

...Thanks for the offer, but I'm good.  I was able to calculate the EDR (see post) and I know I need to replace all the windows in the building with new ones (and new sealings around them) I had the gas company come in a couple of winters ago and give me a 'heat loss audit'. The windows are my #1 source of heat loss closely followed by my antique outer doors (which are NOT getting replaced under any circuimstance.)  :- ) 

PoliteNYC

Long Beach Ed, my responses

..."Your thermocouples probably failed because they were improperly

installed and overheated.  If they are installed with the very tip in

the flame, they will fail.  Generally a thermocouple is more reliable

than electronic ignition, though with much of the newer stuff being

imported, you can toss a coin to figure out which will last longer.  The

electronic ignition will save you some gas and may entitle you to a

rebate from your gas supplier. "



Yep, the tip was in the flame, and was always corroded/burnt when removed. I'm thinking I'm going to go with the electronic ignition.



"Yes, the probe LWC must be kept clean.  A float type must be flushed

weekly.  No matter which you use, it is good practice to check the water

level weekly and replace any system components that would be

responsible for high water consumption."



I have to flush a float system out WEEKLY? I sure don't have that kind of time. 2 probes it will be!



"Most important is that your boiler is properly sized to the connected

radiators."



See my new long post, I have been waaaay oversized for my needs.



"I would not trust the calculations given you by someone who

told you Burnham boilers use rubber gaskets. "



To be fair, the guy is the plumbing contractor who totally re-piped my whole 5 story brownstone, (water,sewer & heating) when I did the gut renovation. (And not a pipe has leaked in 6+ years.) He also installed the three Burnham hot water boilers which have had no issues in 6 years. Given those facts, I can forgive him for misspeaking on this one point. Well two points, I had to do the EDR calcs myself, and probably don't need an Burnham IN5 140,000 BTU unit, but I'm glad I'm now educated on the topic.

Long Beach Ed

Let me get this right...

This plumber gave you bad information about a boiler, steering you toward a product that would give him a larger margin. 



Then he recommended you over size it by almost 100%. 



To get the right information you are measuring your own radiators and doing your own radiator calculations. 



So the job gets done right you are posting on the Internet seeking advice from experienced steam fitters. 



And I am to understand that you are still going to give this plumber the job because he piped your bathrooms and they don't leak? 



Good luck. 

PoliteNYC

You are absolutely right

My girlfriend just concurred with your analysis when I read her your post over the phone. I will contact a couple of new contractors this week. All I'm going to tell them is I need to replace the existing boiler, and just observe their methodology and recommendations. Clearly I've been blinded by some distorted sense of 'renovation loyalty.' 



Thanks for giving it to me, as my Grandma put it  "straight with no chaser", Ed! (Two thumbs up.)

Long Beach Ed

Steam Heating

Thanks for the kind words.  As you've been reading, steam heating has become somewhat of a specialty.  It's unfortunate that so few tradesmen know anything about it.  But it seems that doesn't stop them from taking on jobs.  Then the jobs don't work.  After trying to argue with the ignorant, the homeowner calls someone like us. 



When we tell them what it would cost to fix the poor workmanship, we're told, "But I already spent XXX on this stupid boiler!". 



Which is why we seldom fix anyone else's work, though the majority of steam calls we get require just that. 



Employ a tradesman with a proven steam installation track record.  You'll certainly spend more money up front -- probably a lot more -- but you'll save it many times over in fuel, comfort and longevity. 

KeithC

Steam

I'm not sure that plumbing skills necessarily telegraph over to steam expertise. . . and that's being polite. Just because the van says "Plumbing and Heating" doesn't mean the person is an expert on all things. Find a qualified installer.



Keith

PoliteNYC

Any thoughts on these other questions?

Knowing that according to the EDR calculations that I need the boiler to generate at least 42,600 BTUs, would a Burnham IN4 (105,000 BTUs) be sufficient without being too oversized? (The next moddel down is the IN3, which has an input MBH of 62,000 BTUs).



Also, (from an earlier post): My steam furnace is actually set up for 'two-zone' operation (Sorry if I'm using incorrect terminology). I use steam radiators on the floor above the cellar, controlled by one digital thermostat, and there is a hot water return setup on the cellar floor using Slant/Fin MultiPak/80 baseboard, also controlled by it's own thermostat.

Question: Since the cellar is being heated via a by-product of the steam that's generated for the upstairs radiators, (if I'm understanding the heating process correctly),  is it necessary to factor in any EDR for the cellar floor when sizing the boiler?



Thanks for being patient with a newbie. (My telecommunications degree so does not apply here.) LOL

PoliteNYC

NYC

Fortunately, in NYC with a bazillion older buildings, there should be a lot of heating contractors that are versed in steam. But, as you said, all contractors have 'plumbing & heating' on their trucks (and websites), but hot water boilers are a totally different animal. I've got feelers out to my contractor friends for references, if they have any.

Long Beach Ed

Condensate Zone

The additional zone heated from condensate generally does not require any additional boiler capacity.  Its capacity is usually derived from the pick-up factor you calculate into the boiler sizing. We say "usually," because an experienced installer would assess the system for proper water capacity, control design, etc. when sizing the boiler.



The choice of an IN3 vs and IN4 would be made by an qualified engineer's examination of the system and application of an appropriate factor for start-up or pickup.   



You can't simply choose one over the other without seeing the particularities of the  piping, insulation, radiation and the construction of the system to which it is connected.



Here's where experience comes to play.  With modern low water capacity boilers and high fuel costs, the results of undersizing or oversizing a boiler can be equally catastrophic if the wrong boiler is chosen.  When you employ a professional, he makes the choice and stands behind that choice.



Sorry, but we've been around long enough to say there's no correct Internet answer for this one. 

Charlie from wmass

Basement piping needs to be properly considered.

I often find they are piped as if they are hot water boilers not steam boilers supplying a hot water zone. You do not need to convert your E.D.R. to BTU to size the boiler. The boilers for steam have ratings for E.D.R. Are you positive on your E.D.R. ? I still add the standard 1.33 to the radiators and compare that to the boiler ratings. That gives a 236 EDR for the new boiler. This means the IN 4 would work for the steam end. How much heat is required for heating the basement? How many square feet are you heating? If it has its own themostat it must be getting pumped around not simply a waste product of your steam production.

PoliteNYC

Basement specs

The heatable area in the cellar is 585 sq ft. in total.



 If you look at the Flickr link that I included in one of my above posts, the 7th picture shows the piping leaving the boiler for the cellar baseboards. To the left  in that pic you see a green Taco cartridge circulator (model # 007-F5), which is connected to a Honeywell aquastat relay (grey box in the upper left of that pic), which has a wire running to the cellar thermostat.



I have 55 linear feet of Slant/Fin MultiPak 80 light commercial baseboard (model # 83-A2) along 3 walls in the entire cellar. The cellar heats up very nicely when I activate the (210,000 BTU) behemoth to circulate hot water down there. I want that same heat output to translate with the new boiler that gets put in.

Long Beach Ed

Fifty-five feet...

You've got 55 feet of baseboard radiators in your 500 square foot basement? 



Bet the handyman who put that in worked really cheap. 



I wish I had just 1/10th of the fuel wasted with that arrangement. 

PoliteNYC

Before wasn't hot enough...

When I first had the building renovated, there was 25 ft. of baseboard along one 38 ft long room in the cellar. It was NOT heating to my liking. (Being totally below ground the cellar freezes on the coldest days.) So at my request (you're right, I had a handyman do the work, not a contractor) additional sections of baseboard were installed to wrap the area that I frequent in heat. Now I'm comfortable down there and have baseboard in the laundry room, which didn't have previously and it stayed chilly when the heat was on in the rest of the cellar. I'm sure I went overboard on the baseboard, but I've been comfy (albeit at a higher fuel cost) which has been an acceptable tradeoff. Hopefully, with a new, properly sized boiler, I'll be able to trim the fuel costs somewhat.

jpf321

my offer stands...

If you want a FREE UNBIASED assessment based on my learning here, in the field and at Dan's Steam school. I'm happy to stop over.