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steam or hot water

bob young
bob young Member Posts: 2,177
for a rental apt. gas fired boiler . which would be more economical for utility usage.  properly sized new steam boiler w/ steel convector radiation or new boiler & new copper baseboard.  existing steam boiler grossly oversized . remedy : replace w/ new proper size boiler or scrap entire steam system & replace with hot water.   bob young nyc  lic. plbr.

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    edited August 2010
    A properly sized steamer

    would be far more cost-effective. If properly done it would approach the efficiency of hot-water using the same boiler, and would not pose the danger of freezing if a tenant leaves a window open. No landlord is going to spend big bucks for a mod-con and everything else that goes with it.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    thanks frank. i can always depend on you

    thanks frank. as always----you are the best.  how is gordo ?  bob nyc
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    oversized steamer ?

    maybe a modulating burner would correct the oversize. controlled by pressure, it could start out at "x"[btu], and when the pressure gets to 3 oz, then drop down to .75 "x"?

    it would probably depend on just how over-sized the boiler is.--nbc
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    mod. burner. thanks Nicholas

    i had entertained that solution or removing select burners, or modifying orifaces but would rather not experiment. on this one. since i am a lic. plbr & do not have to hire an outside  contractor , i would rather swap unit out with drop header & proper contol s.  property is also  owned by me. i was leaning to hot water but my friend frank steamhead set me straight on the steam option & the man knows.  thats for sure.  now i am waiting for clammy to concur !   lol   bob nyc  
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,419
    the other take ....

    would be that since it is in an Apt. situation the steam rads will take a whole lot more abuse than copper fin tube....
  • My $.02, FWIW

    I have never thought steam with baseboard was a good combination.  To me this is about the closest you can get to  forced hot air with hydronics.  The problem is in the fact that baseboard simply does not have enough mass to even out the pulses of steam.  Pulses of hot air are created by the baseboard that race to the ceiling, where the heat is not needed or wanted, and this draws in colder outdoor air through any leaks at the lower portion of the structure.  You end of with bigger fuel usage just due to the nature of the heating system.

     System efficiency is probably really low with this setup.  This (sorry guys) is one of the few steam systems I recommend be converted to hot water.  I would look at heat loads closely to see if you can leave the steel baseboard in place and reuse it.   Most of these systems are newer, so the chance of leaks should be much lower.  Wet returns may need replacement, but the rest is probably OK.  Maybe reuse the boiler for now and add some thermal mass to get longer burns and a stack damper to cut stand by losses, if budget is tight.  Modulating input boiler for sure with full reset, and maybe  condensing if the return water temps for typical winter day running are low enough (spread your system delta tee if you can).



    I would avoid installing fin tube baseboard, since it really does not deal with abuse well.

    Steamhead's other points are also very good in favor of steam, but I think the efficiency balance for this type of system leans heavily to hot water, especially if using 1) reset, then 2)  modulation, and 3) condensing
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    We have several houses

    using steel fin-tube convectors on steam- not baseboard but stand-up type which is what I think Bob is talking about. They don't seem to work less well on steam if piped properly. On hot-water, this type of convector cools quickly too because of its low water content.



    Go to



    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/131357/Adding-Steam-and-Hot-water-Radiation-to-a-Steam-System



    This is one such house, where the original recessed fin-tube convectors prompted us to use similar low-mass radiation for both the steam and the hot-water zones.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Yes, but....

    if they are running on hot water with reset, they almost never completely cool or completely get real hot.  This allows a very steady flow of heat to the space, cutting the air stratification, since the heat suppied closely tracks the heat lost.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
This discussion has been closed.