Daikin heat source

Sol Hydronics

Daikin air to water heat pumps are showing up on a lot of jobs I have to bid right now. This is a new product to me and I would like to know how many people here have had the chance to install one of these units for radiant heat and hot water. Cooling fan coils and air handlers are also required. I know there is a class I need to go to in order to sell and install this product. I look forward to seeing what people think. Thanks, mike

NRT_Rob

we have one

in our shop. if you're heating and cooling and it fits the load profile, seems to be a good unit. we haven't started BTU/KWH monitoring yet and haven't been through a full winter yet though. we are radiant cooling with it now though... still working out the initial bugs a bit on the settings and such, tinkering with it in between "real work".



we chose not to use it for DHW. seems pretty weak there, frankly, and you're using mostly electric backup anyway.



you should take a class.



Expect to use a buffer tank if you have low mass or small zones.



I have some gripes but overall it's a cool tech. If it could take a 0-10vdc input I'd be in love.

Sol Hydronics

Safe to say

It is looking like there are not many people using this product. Here in Monterey county, California, this air to water heat pump is showing up on lots of the plans for new construction radiant heat and domestic water production as well as cooling. I would still love to hear any remarks about this concept. Thanks Mike

eluv8

NRT Rob 0-10V I would be in love

Are you wishing that it had the ability to modulate output based on 0-10V input signal utilizing 2 stage or multiple compressors in one box.



Because that would be cool or um hot, Great.



Perhaps Multiaqua is listening, and will release something like that although they only have a 5 ton air source heat pump  and I have not heard if they plan on doing anything else. They seem to be more focused on cooling at the moment. But I have been wrong before.



For now buffer tanks seem to fill the void.

NRT_Rob

depends

the daikin unit has a modulating compressor (3 to 1 or so, pretty cool), wouldn't mind running that on 0-10v, but failing that, just passing a temperature setpoint would be fine as well. we use tekmar indoor feedback controls a lot, but we can't in this case because the daikin won't take a setpoint from another device so it's outdoor reset only.

eluv8

NRT Rob You might try

Looking at Multiaqua then, they use a simple Ranco setpoint control and the manufacture allows switching to a different setpoint control that enables 0-10v modulation of the setpoint.

NRT_Rob

I looked at that one

didn't catch that part though, thanks. However, it only works down to about 17 deg f. even our midatlantic clients have design temps significantly lower than that.



the Daikin unit works down to -4 deg F. that's a pretty big advantage. Output isn't huge at that level, but here at our shop that means at least half our load is met with the heat pump at all times, even on design heating day, in central/southern maine.



I'll have to check out the multiaqua unit for systems with other backups though or marginal heating requirements. I bet it's a fair bit cheaper than the Altherma for those situations.

zacmobile

aermec

just got some info on Aermec equipment www.aermec.us, their air -water unit can go down to 14°F, not as good as the Daikin but a little better than the Multi-Aqua, waiting for pricing now.



I got a quote on a Multi-Aqua heat pump for a customer about a year ago and it was ludicrously expensive, it was around the same price to do geo, which is what we did.

eluv8

aremec

I have not heard of that company I will have to look into them.



 The air source heat pump market has been slow to take off for some reason, (Insert Conspiracy Theory of choice) yet I think the potential is there for many areas of the US. So much easier than running a ground loop system, and COP is very attractive for most of the season with decent outputs. York had a unit out for a little while but never really got behind it and I don't know if they even still produce it. They basically bought out another company and that was it.



I know Multiaqua has a digital scroll compressor that goes lower on the chilled side for ice storage, I don't know if they can use it on the heat pump side or what it would do to the cost. I have never priced it out. I usually design a system once we get down closer to design to switch over to gas or electric backup. Like you said the btu output at those low temps usually is not much, but with inverter technology I would think that could change.



I have preferred Multiaqua simply due to simplicity of design. There really is not much to fail on the unit. Just don't make a mistake ordering, they have a nasty restock fee.

zacmobile

running cost

I've run a few software simulation scenarios comparing high-efficiency gas vs air source heat pump w/electric back-up and the running costs are almost identical.  and thats with our relatively low rates (for north america) in interior british columbia of  $0.9 p/kwh for elctricity. i'm sure it would be much more of a spread in the east, however if you need cooling the point is moot.

eluv8

Running Cost

Are you comparing Air Source To Water or Air Source to Air Heat Pumps? Just out of curiosity.



What software are you using?



Of note, I would not design the system to use electric backup for heat with a .9 rate if natural gas was available. I think even LP at that rate still would win out.

zacmobile

comparisons

that would be high eff gas boiler vs air to air, my program doesn't have air to water unfortunately.



 the program is geodesigner by climatemaster, available free on their website: http://www.climatemaster.com/index/geodesigner?highlight=geodesigner



around here (or anywhere for that matter) i've never seen gas backup on an air source heat pump, they always seem to be electric.

eluv8

back in the day

when I sold forced air hvac we typically did heat pumps with electric strip backup as well. Although we did a fair share of gas backups  for the colder areas in the mountains usually and programed a crossover point depending on the load calcs the size of the heat pump and whether it was a two stage, 2 compressor or single stage single compressor unit.



The goal was to keep the electric elements from turning on EVER. I guess if electric was .4 cents or some crazy low price and gas was 1.00 therm or 2.50 gal it would be different.



Usually it seems the customer is not given the option as to not complicate the sale or designers lack of knowing better. I had to learn less is more sometimes with clients. So I would try and go one size larger on the condenser and sell a two stage heat pump instead of the gas backup or even electric strip heat. You might be surprised how good the numbers can look even @ .9 cents with this approach. A/C would run on first stage, and heat would run first stage until design and then would bring in second stage. 3 stage would be electric strip if the numbers or customer asked for it but that was rare with this design. I would be surprised if Climatemaster could simulate that load but real world it is pretty nice. Saved a lot of customers some money and the ECM fan and 2 stage system offered a decent comfort level. Still not hydronics but better than usual scorched air. The best part, we separated ourselves from the competition and sold jobs at higher margins with happier customers.



The Multiaqua and Daikin units are AIR to WATER offering a different approach to heating and cooling a structure with some very nice features. like REAL zoning and radiant cooling systems. The EER and COP of the units can match those of geothermal and you do not have to run a loop field or well.



Essentially its like having a hydronic geothermal heat pump minus the ground loop. As discussed above the limitation is heating when the temps drop outside. They can only pull so much heat out of the air when you need it most.



It seems like at the moment every technology we have has a limitation holding it back.



Note: If anyone in the Phoenix, AZ area is hiring I would be interested.

NRT_Rob

it does seem that way

wish our listing agencies in the US would stop wussing out and test the compressed co2 units they have in japan and abroad.



when those hit, boilers will start to disappear I think...

eluv8

Change

Seems like rather than adapt and expand into viable alternative resources and developing systems that enhance our way of life companies are more focused on protecting what they currently sell and doing what they have always done. I believe in keeping your roots  and what makes you unique, but that does not mean you have to sell the same products forever.



From an outsiders viewpoint.The current system of bureaucracy makes it very difficult and expensive for good ideas to ever have the chance to become a reality.



I would love to prototype and produce an invention of my own but lack of patent and copyright funds has me stuck at step one. I guess I could hope to some day become a contestant on Shark Tank or win the lottery I don't play.

Jim_161

Aermec Heat Pump

The new Aermec heat pumps operate to -20C 0r -4 F, provide 140F water so they can be used for heating, potable water, cooling, pool heating you name it. Availble up to 270 Tons with free cooling and 100 percent heat recovery on the units above 20 tons. Cool eh? Aermec