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chasing a radiation noise (quick before my wife and dog disown me!)

Stray
Stray Member Posts: 29
I installed a TT Solo 110 after converting from oil to propane last fall.  See attached pic.

All is working splendidly, but I have a constant "tone" when one of my 2 radiation zones is circulating.  It's some kind of standing harmonic tone, sometimes it waffles a bit, sometimes totally constant.  Sounds like the old fashioned TV tone when braodcast TV used to shut down for the night (you old folks will remember...BC (before cable!).

Both circs are Taco 1/25hp model 008-F6, zones are 1" finned tube.

Could it be a bad cartridge circ? 

This zone has less friction/head loss than the other, could it be that the water is screaming along too fast (ie downsize the circ)?

The tone is most noticable when in the living space with the radiation, not as noticable standing in the basemetn with the boiler.



HELP! before my wife and dog totally kick me out!  Thanks.

Comments

  • Nathan_6
    Nathan_6 Member Posts: 40
    Fluid noise

    You are most likely experiencing fluid noise from two high of flow rate for the size of pipe and heat emitter.

    1" type "L" copper approaches 4 ft/sec at 10 gpm according to the B&G system syzer wheel.  Anytime you get near to or over 4ft/sec in a system you will get noise and at the higher flow rate your air eliminators won't expel air from the system as well as at a slower flow rate which could increase your system noise if you still have air entrapped in the system. 

    Your 008 pumps at even 6 foot of head is flowing almost 11.5 gpm.  If your calculated head for that loop is less then 6ft then you will even be flowing faster. If you calculated your flow needs and head-loss for your whole system you will probably find that one 008 as a system pump could have carried the whole system and you could have used zone valves instead of pumps for each zone.

    You could swap the 008's out with small three speed pumps like wilo's 21s, or grundfos 15-58 or you could replace the 008's with a wilo ECO or grundfos Alpha pump and dial in exactly what you need for flow while saving you in the neighborhood of 80% in electrical cost over the fixed speed circulators. 

    On a side note we install Wilo ecos and stratos pumps in every job we do and have only installed one grundfos Alpha.  So I tend to lean towards the Wilo Line but both pumps have worked out great for us and depending on your electric rates and length of heating system the payback is in around 2 years or a little less.
  • Stray
    Stray Member Posts: 29
    Thanks for

    the reply.

    I'm wondering if I'd have an issue with the take-off dimensions if I moved away from the taco pumps to the brands you selected? (OK so I'm lazy... I admit it!)



    Do you think i'd be OK just choosing the smallest cartridge circ from Taco?



    Also, to test the theory, if I throttled back the ball valve just down stream from the existing circ pump, that should also stop the noise correct? acing like a crud balance valve? I know I wouldn't want to leave it like that, but it would point me in the right direction I would think.
  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,025
    Noise

    "You are most likely experiencing fluid noise from two high of flow rate for the size of pipe and heat emitter.

    1" type "L" copper approaches 4 ft/sec at 10 gpm according to the B&G system syzer wheel.  Anytime you get near to or over 4ft/sec in a system you will get noise and at the higher flow rate your air eliminators won't expel air from the system as well as at a slower flow rate which could increase your system noise if you still have air entrapped in the system. 

    Your 008 pumps at even 6 foot of head is flowing almost 11.5 gpm.  If your calculated head for that loop is less then 6ft then you will even be flowing faster. If you calculated your flow needs and head-loss for your whole system you will probably find that one 008 as a system pump could have carried the whole system and you could have used zone valves instead of pumps for each zone.

    You could swap the 008's out with small three speed pumps like wilo's 21s, or grundfos 15-58 or you could replace the 008's with a wilo ECO or grundfos Alpha pump and dial in exactly what you need for flow while saving you in the neighborhood of 80% in electrical cost over the fixed speed circulators. 

    On a side note we install Wilo ecos and stratos pumps in every job we do and have only installed one grundfos Alpha.  So I tend to lean towards the Wilo Line but both pumps have worked out great for us and depending on your electric rates and length of heating system the payback is in around 2 years or a little less."



    This.
    Just a guy running some pipes.
  • Stray
    Stray Member Posts: 29
    cut off?

    I'm thinking your last reply got cut off or deleted somehow?  Could you please try it again?
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    You're chokin', right....

    Not chicken chokin', but circ chokin'. :-)



    Yes, choking back the flow temporarily will help to determine if it is a velocity harmonics, or a pump impellance harmonics that you are hearing, and I suspect the velocity issue will be the answer.



    Correctly sizing the pump is actually quite simple, as others have noted. Putting in a larger than necessary pump doesn't do anyone any favors,then when choked back, its like driving an automobile with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake.



    In heating systems, with the possible exception of the heat emitters and expansion tanks, bigger is not always better.



    Choke it.



    While it is running.



    And you will probably have to go to the 80 to 90% range of the valves throw before you start realizing any difference. Such is the nature of a ball valve.



    Best of luck and report back to us please.



    WOOF!



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Nathan_6
    Nathan_6 Member Posts: 40
    flange to flange the same

    "I'm wondering if I'd have an issue with the take-off dimensions if I moved away from the taco pumps to the brands you selected?"

    Flange to flange dimension is the same on all of these pumps I mentioned and Like Mark stated you will have to choke the ball valve down 80 to 90 percent before it starts doing anything for you.
  • Stray
    Stray Member Posts: 29
    dumb follow up...

    Timco,

    Thanks for the good info.

    A dumb follow up...  Even though the take-off for different pumps would be the same 6-3/8"), can I use the Taco flanges in the system for a different pump (Wilo, grundfos, etc...) of do I need to buy a flange set for the mfr's of pump I buy?

    The Taco flanges I have installed are nice ($) with integral ball valves, so if I don't have to I'd prefer not to replace them.  If that's that case, maybe I'd try the Taco 006 circ instead to rid my house of noise.

    Thanks!

    Stray
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,318
    That range of circs all use the same flanges

    no need to replace them. You don't get into bigger flanges till you get to the Taco 0012, Grundfos UP-43-75 or similar.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Stray
    Stray Member Posts: 29
    great! thanks

    I wasn't sure if the groves, etc.. of the flanges were proprietary, or universal. This makes it nice and easy. I think I'l try the Wilo classic 16
  • Just one other thing

    Taco uses slightly different flange gaskets than everyone else.  Be sure to use the correct gasket withthe pump you are installing.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
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