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Help in Warsaw, IL

Enclosed are some pictures, also here is a some more info.:

1.) Burnham Boiler 385,000 BTU (Model # KIN1ZLNI-LL2)

2.) The boiler was designed for 1000 sq. ft. of steam

3.) The Radiators in the house are a two pipe system (one pipe to the top (3/4” dia.) with a valve, the second pipe (3/4” dia.) at the bottom with no steam trap)

4.) the system has no steam traps any were, the condensate/ return line has a place in the middle of the basement where the 3/4” dia. line turn into a 2” dia. line which goes vertical into the attic and vents in to the main stack.

5.) There is two Main (bullet looking) Vents, one on the steam line by the boiler and one on the condensate/ return line at the boiler.





We’ve had alot of water hammer/ banging....so I purchase Dan’s books, which lead me to HeatingHelp. This is a good thing because it made me realize the pipe was installed wrong. Well the contractor is willing to replace the piping per spec., except it will only be welded no companion flanges (is that good or bad...in other words will it work). But, the biggest worry is if you can tell by the pictures I’m not sure how to tie this back into the old pipe and how to repostion the (bullet) vent, if I will even still need it. I would draw a schematic but just a little above my abilities. The welder wants to re-weld on thursday.

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,324
    edited April 2010
    Thought that town sounded familiar

    I've been through there several times, having had relatives in Keokuk and also Macomb. I was out there this past summer, in time to check out the new Highway 336. Nice road and no traffic.



    First thing is to call Dave Bunnell, a.k.a. Boilerpro, as I mentioned in my reply to your e-mail. Not sure if he would come that far south but there's no harm in asking. Boilerpro's info is here:



    http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/Boiler-Professionals-Inc



    That boiler will have to be completely repiped. Nothing else will produce dry steam. I've outlined the reasons for not welding the header in the other thread.



    This is an early Vapor system, possibly a variation of the Morgan. The riser to the attic confirms it. The steam main vent is almost certainly too small. The return elbows on the radiators might have water seals or check valves in them.



    Can you take some pics of any original radiator shutoffs and return elbows that remain? Have you found any names or trademarks on any of them?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Price07
    Price07 Posts: 4
    Welded Steam Header

    Thank you for your time, in dan's book it talks about not welding but, I don't have the option of pipe fitting. Anything else i need to look for if welding the only option? I have a call into Dave, thanks for that info. Still worried about how to tie into the existing lines. Thanks again.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,324
    It's easier than it looks

    just about all the drop headers on the smaller boilers pictured in the Library, were built using pre-cut pipe nipples. The installer obtains a couple "runs" of nipples, and the needed fittings, and uses them to build the header. Very little if any threading is involved.

    Boilerpro could probably do that header in his sleep.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Price07
    Price07 Posts: 4
    Steam Header

    Another question the boiler id. gives to options...one has a 90 deg only. The second (alternate in picture) 90 deg. then 90 deg.s again down. Is one better than the other?



    Thanks
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,324
    edited April 2010
    The one with the two 90s on each riser

    is called a "drop header". The second 90 is a welcome addition when you have two or more risers from the boiler to the header- it makes assembly much easier, and also allows for more expansion & contraction.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Price07
    Price07 Posts: 4
    Welded Steam Header

    I know this was not the best way, but, it was the only way I could get the guy who first intalled it, to fix it. I am very thankful for you help and comments. Here is what the welder has done so far. Would like your opinion?
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,000
    the welded job is mighty nice.

    i just don't understand why..doesn't the fitter own a pipe threader? but the end result is pretty.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,319
    edited April 2010
    Return eleminated?

    If I'm understanding the first round of pictures correctly, the two inch line in the back of the boiler is the end of the main, a dry return. It seems like the re-pipe has eliminated that return, or is the re-pipe not complete? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, it's so hard to troubleshoot from pictures! Haha. Try to step back from the boiler and take more pictures of the basement and possible any writing on radiator valves/fittings.
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,422
    alleviating the stress

    some strategic flange joints would absorb the stress of the header, because their threads can turn with the thermal deformation; and that would be the same as threaded pipe. if your boiler has gasket joints, instead of steel nipples, you want the stress relieved. either that or hartford boiler insurance.--nbc
  • HI.....

    I just left you a message a short while ago.  I was in Chicago this week.  The configuration of the new header looks great, but you still need stress relief on the risers.  The problem is that cast iron in the boiler and the steel header have two different coefficients of expansion. Steel and cast iron expand and contract at different rates so as the boiler and piping heat up, the boiler castings will be heavily stressed (especially in a larger boiler like that) and will eventually fail.  The boiler also will have no manufacturers warranty when installed like that.  To give you an idea of how fast the boiler may fail, I was out a few years ago on a 3 year old Weil Mclain boiler and it was leaking all  along the top gaskets between the sections and had a header just like yours.  If the installer insists on leaving the header like that, you should insist that he will pay the full costs for replacement when the sectins crack due to the stress the header will cause.    All is takes is 4 nipples and a pair of flanges to help relieve the stress.  Better yet is a few 2 inch nipples and elbows to replace the up and over fittings with threaded to allow even more movement.  The3 inch header and connection to the system can be welded, just not the connections to the boiler.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,000
    he ought to just invest

    in a 141 die..but maybe im a dinosaur..or so i've been told.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,324
    Either that

    or rent one, as we would if our 141 broke or we had to thread anything bigger than 4-inch.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
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