Water quality for best steam operation

WorkerBee

Got a question for Dan or some good steam heads out there.  Often times the water in steam systems has something in it that acts like an inhibitor when trying to get steam to lift off.  Is there a filtering system that prevents crud in water?  Yes, I know that there are all kinds of water doctors out there but an old head told me that he filled systems with rainwater or distilled water to reduce water crud and never added chemical crud.  Now I am not talking an old oily system.  This would be something that would be new production.  Since this steam system will require make up water as some of the steam will not be recoverable, how can I make sure we have the best water quality to supply the system?  Does the chemical in these sacrificial scale preventers cause problems with steam lift off?  Any help would be appreciated.

Steamhead

In Baltimore

the water as supplied is fine.



You describe this as "new production"- are you building a steam system from scratch? 

Big Ed_4

Prevent ...

.... the steam leaks and prevent the crud... The crud or mud(solids ) is left behind when the water is boiled off and lost from the system ... Replace the leaking vents and repair the packings and the water will stay clear ...

WorkerBee

To Steamhead

Yes, this is a new from scratch system.  Or from scratch new system.  I have seen a lot of steam systems for almost every application from steam cranes to steam cookers to steam boilers and steam heating systems and steam engines.  They all leaked and were very difficult to maintain.  They were all old technology.  This is a steam engine to produce electricity from biomass.  So we want to avoid all the old problems and hopefully have a "new" better idea for the use of steam.  At the present we do not have any leaks and I understand that if there are no leaks that the mud/crud will not be left if the water boils off.  BUT, that is not the end to the question.  We want as pristine of water quality as possible.  There will be a release of steam to a portion of the system for cleaning.  Therefore; make up water.  And our search to find a way to eliminate all particulate in the water.  We will be using soft water so no calcium or magnesium and also filtration down to 5 microns but looking to see if there is something else that should be looked at.   Thank you for your response.

Steamhead

Oh OK, this is a steam power application

which is quite different from steam heating. Still, there are similarities.



From your description it sounds like the water will be mostly re-used, not wasted as in the case of steam locomotives or similar systems. This in itself will go a long way toward reducing corrosion.



Maintaining the system need not be difficult. Without knowing the specifics of how the system will be laid out, in general terms you should use good-quality shutoff valves in the right places and exercise them so they will work when needed. You will need to make provision for flushing out the system if any crud does accumulate. This typically happens at low points, in wet return lines, etc.



No water treatment is foolproof, but the general consensus here would be to send you to Rhomar Water Management, http://www.rhomarwater.com/ . They seem to be the best we've encountered.



It sounds like you've encountered some steam systems that have been badly neglected. If you treat yours right, it will serve you well.



What pressure do you expect to run?

WorkerBee

Water Quality

Hey Steamhead, thanks for the info.  I will give Rhomar a looksee.  Uh, well yes and no.  I think I said before that the primary purpose for the steam is power generation but we would like to use the steam again for heating.  Further cooling it to condensation.  Since you seem to like steam, here is a little tickler for you.  IF we can get things RIGHT by our standards and get this unit working up to our specs, there will be a whole new industry for smart young men and women to be employed.  The service industry for our profession is not dead.  Think of it this way, most commercial industries produce a tremendous about of biomass.  We hope to convert this trash to energy.  Just let your head spin about the possibilities for a minute.  They are already doing so in Europe and in the far East as they do not have anywhere to put a dump.  What do they call them now?  Oh yes, a landfill.  Huge plots of ground that could be cultivated for food.  Our mission is to reduce such waste.

nicholas bonham-carter

soft water?

most water softeners use salt, and produce mildly salty water. the chlorides in salt can do a lot of damage to boilers, both fire-side and water-side. would this be something to consider? maybe purification by reverse osmosis would be better.--nbc

Steamhead

Everything old is new again

They used to do this very thing in larger buildings that were built with electric light and power systems before the rise of the "grid". A steam engine powered a generator and the exhaust steam heated the building.



Check out chapter 15 of Dan's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and you'll see some examples from Webster, Bishop-Babcock and others. If you don't have a copy, you can get one on this site- click "Shop" to get to the online store.



Larger power-generating plants often channeled their exhaust steam into pipes under city streets. This method of "district steam heating" eliminated a lot of old, smoky  coal-fired boilers. It was one of the first pollution-control projects, and with the development of the "absorption cycle" could also be used for cooling. Are you planning to do something on this scale?

WorkerBee

Personal Power Plant

Nope.  This one could be put in your own out building the size of a one stall garage.  The unit itself takes up 4 by 8 foot but the fuel and feed system take up a little more room.  We do have a unit working but some things still need to be worked out.  Tweaking it to make it ready for some alpha models to be produced,  sold, and put into service for evaluation with different operators to see what needs to be tweaked again.  To answer a question in one of your previous posts, pressures will vary depending on power output required.  So far we have run from 2 to 35 psi.  The higher pressure the faster the engine runs, the faster the generator runs, the more electricity that is produced.  Steam is a beautiful thing.  Ha ha.  Someone commented on RO water.  We have looked at that but it seems that RO also becomes extrememly aggressive when heated and is prone to pull ions from the heat exchanger causing brittleness of the interior surface which results in flaking due to the expansion and contraction of the exchanger.  Please go to www.abundantenergyworks.com.  I think you will find the concept and information contained therein interesting. 

Mark Eatherton

Interesting indeed...

How much power (KWH) can you generate? Is it generated in DC form?



I have a radiant window product that could be married to your unit resulting in even more energy savings.



Water quality is defiinitely going to be an issue. Maybe you should consider an Earth Linked heat exchanger to cool steam back to condensate, and possibly store the excess energy in the ground, and then depending upon the grade of heat, extract it with pumps, or a ground source heat pump powered off of your PPP.



I have a really good design on a single pipe copper tube in tube heat exchanger for doing just that job :=)



I couldn't get the second video to run. Probably a software issue on my end.



Tell us more. Have you deployed any beta units yet? Are you looking for a high altitude test site?



ME

Steamhead

Well, I know a house in Baltimore

with a brand-new three-bay garage, where we might do that. E-mail me off-list and we'll talk. 

WorkerBee

Power Plant

We have such a long way to go.  Cannot and at this point do not want to get into a constant question answering mode.  Too many other things that require attention.  When we have a marketable unit I will come to the wall to introduce it.  We can all then find applications to fit each individuals geographic area and expertise.  Until then, no more posts.  Thank you for your information and responses.