New to steam a couple of Q's

TheMadScientist

Just moved into a house with 1-pipe steam heat.  I have been reading for ~2 weeks about this type of system.

I had severe water hammer on one radiator.  First thing I fixed was the water hammer.  The pipes were uninsulated when we moved in.  I have been buying 6 lengths of 1" fiberglass insulation a week.  I now have 90% of the pipes insulated.

From my reading the pressure control should be set at the lowest settings I can use without short cycling.  Right now it is set at a 0.5 cutin with a 1psi differential, so 1.5psi cutout.  The burner runs until the thermostat is satisfied.  After I finish the insulation I will be replacing the main vent with 4 gorton #1s, just afraid of the reports of the #2's leaking.  Can I over vent the main?  From my reading the only down side of over venting is $$$$.



I have a burnham v-33 boiler.  I think my close piping is wrong but I can not find an I/O manual for this boiler online or at the local plumbing supply houses.  Does anyone have this manual?





How low can I run the water level?  I only have 27" from water level in the sight glass to the top of I think it is called the header.  The water level is at the middle of the glass right now.  Can I lower the water level 1" to get the min of 28" recommended on this site?  From my reading as long as the LWCO does not activate I should be fine with 1" lower water level, right/wrong?



I don't think this boiler has been blown down on a regular schedule.  No one around me even the 70+ year olds had any idea that you should blow down the LWCO 2-3 times a month.  I have since been blowing the LWCO and the main drain down twice a week for ~2 months until the water runs clear and the sight glass still has rust colored water in it.  Will I ever be able to get clear water in the sight glass?  I have removed and cleaned the glass so I know it is the water that is rust colored.

 



Thanks for any insight for the newbie.

Unknown

Burnham V33

I couldn't find any literature on that model, are you sure it isn't a V73 or V83?



If the first horizontal steam carrying pipe is 27" above the normal water line you are probably just fine. Can you post some pictures of the system here so everyone can see what you are talking about?



BTW after insulating my pipes, replacing my main vent and  and reducing my steam pressure (new vaporstat and 3 psi gauge) I decreased my oil use by about 30% - well worth the time and expense.



If you want to track your fuel usage carefully you can install an elapsed time meter on the oil burner itself and track the amount of time the system has been firing. With a record of how much oil your using (hours X gal/hr of the nozzle) you can then figure out what the fuel usage is vs the degree days data in your area. If it is a gas fired system you can just read your gas meter for the fuel usage. This will give you a good idea of what effects any work you do have on the system.





Your well on your way to having a nice quiet and efficient steam system!







Bob

JStar

Answers.

The near boiler piping should be the same for every boiler, no matter what the make or model.



You only need 24" from the water line to the bottom of the header. Sounds like you have it.

Charlie from wmass

Piping differs by boiler

Smith is fine with 2" header for even a 250kbtu boiler while Burnham wants 3". I am still having good luck with the gorton #2 vents but I by mine from a wholesaler not online. They are direct shipped to me most times from Gorton, packed by Gorton. That may make a difference I am not sure.

Steamhead

Burnham did make a V-33

it was an evolution of the American-Standard A-33. Burnham bought the A-S boiler line around 1971.



This thing was built like a tank, had a 3-inch steam supply tapping and will produce very dry steam if piped in this size and with the 24-inch riser height from the boiler to the header. I can't find my V-3 series I&O manual quickly, but did find the one for the A-3, and that one says you can get away with 2-inch for the 3- or 4-section boiler. I'd still use 2-1/2" or 3" though.



I do know that the setup specs for the Carlin and Sunray burners used on these boilers are on the Oil Tech Talk site.



Take a pic of your boiler and post it here so we can see and evaluate what you have.

TheMadScientist

Pics

Here are a couple of pics.

TheMadScientist

More Q's main vents

I have 100'x2" main.  I found 1xHoffman #75 installed, don't think it is working right.  For now I have opened all rad vents to max settings.

According to the worksheet I need 2xGorton#2 and 1xGorton #1 or 4XHoffman#75 and 1xHoffman#76.

Can anyone confirm this before I go order/buy these?



All so does the blow test work for Hoffman vents?

TheMadScientist

Found more problems

I found one rad vent that is bad and one rad valve stem leaking slightly.

nicholas bonham-carter

leaking packing nut

you can usually stop the leak from a packing nut on the valve by tightening it a bit. you may have to add a short length of graphite string underneath the nut if it has bottomed out in adjustment.

do you know what your pressure is, because at the low pressures we like for steam, there is not much leaking going on?--nbc

JStar

Based on first impression.

Header and main looks good. Return isn't piped with a Hartford Loop. Could be dangerous, and sometimes noisy.

TheMadScientist

Pressure

I really don't know the pressure.  I have the pressure control set as low as it will go and only have a 0-30psi gauge.  I shut the valve that is leaking, we don't use that room and the leaking stopped.

TheMadScientist

Hartford loop

I think that was what was confusing me.  I could not identify any hartford loop.  So far the system is pretty quiet, since I fixed the water hammer on one radiator. 

Steamhead

I'd use

three Gorton #2 vents on that main. It's a little more than what the calc shows, but with the boiler 100 feet from the end of the main a bit extra won't hurt. 

BRIANJ

Old Boiler

If your system was not blown down regularly I would suggest you have a professional clean out all the passage ways (i.e. sight glass, skim port). If you are handy you can do most of this yourself. The rusty sight glass is an indication that a lot of crud may have built up in the ports and may give false water level readings and restrict the flow. Also, be sure to clean out the pigtail to be sure your getting proper pressure readings.

BRIANJ

Old Boiler

If your system was not blown down regularly I would suggest you have a professional clean out all the passage ways (i.e. sight glass, skim port). If you are handy you can do most of this yourself. The rusty sight glass is an indication that a lot of crud may have built up in the ports and may give false water level readings and restrict the flow. Also, be sure to clean out the pigtail to be sure your getting proper pressure readings.

Patrick_North

Header problem?

Wait a minute- it's kinda hard to tell in the photo (the insulation exaggerates what I think I'm seeing), but is that a reducing T in the header?! Your header piping should not reduce until after turning down into the equalizer.

Patrick

TheMadScientist

Yes

There is a reducing tee in the header. 

I think my pressure control might be junk, I have to get a gauge to check it out.

How dangerous is it to not have a hartford loop?  I thought the LWCO would provide the same protection as the hartford loop.  I have tested the LWCO and know it does work and is not all gummed up, it is a float style.

JStar

Protection.

I'll take non-moving-parts over electrical protection any day.



Although, the LWCO is all that is protecting you from a leak in the actual boiler; the loop can't do that.

djthx

Reducing Tee in Header

The purpose of the header is to allow the drier steam to go up and to allow any condensed near boiler water to drain back into the boiler.  The bottom of the header should be pitched toward the returning elbow without any obstruction.  Visualize how water will always collect right at the bottow of that reducing tee.  Since this water has no place to go, some of it will undoubtedly go up with the steam.  And this reduces the system efficiency.



The Hartford Loop's main function is to protect the boiler from a dry firing situation in the event of a wet return leak.  The lwco protects the boiler regardless of how the boiler is losing water.

TheMadScientist

Ask

I went to the store last night, on my way out there was a heating contractor pull in.  I have been looking for a local source for gorton vents, so I asked the contractor if he knew of a source for them.  His reply "Never heard of them.  Just take the vent you have and bring into a plumbing supply house."  I only have 1 hoffman 75 installed, the speadsheet says I need a lot more than just that 1 hoffman.

So it is true.  No one really knows about steam anymore.  The side of this guys van had we work on steam, hot water, forced air, and electric. 

JStar

I think...

He was busting your chops.

Steamhead

MS, where are you located?

there has to be a real heating man near you.......

Big-Al_2

Dry Return

We've discussed this here before.  The Hartford Loop protects the boiler from leaks in a wet return.  Since a dry return is above the waterline, a Hartford Loop serves no real purpose in a system with a dry return.  Some inspectors who don't understand how it works  will insist on one anyway.

TheMadScientist

I am in Eastern MA

I am a mechanic by trade.  I am not looking to change any piping right now.  I am just looking to learn as much as I can about the system.  I have read 57 pages in this forum, ordered the book package and am trying to optimize what I have right now.

I didn't know about 2-3 times a month blow downs and no one I asked knew.  I didn't know how the air vents were supposed to work.  What noises were supposed to be "normal".

I now know these things and can even identify some piping arrangements thanks to this forum mostly.   Thanks guys.



I cleaned the sight glass again.  w00t I have clear water. 

And ZEP45 you are my bestest friend!!

JStar

I've noticed...

...that dry returns without Hartford Loops have a higher chance of causing water hammer at the equalizer connection. The loop also lets you pipe the return as low to the floor as you need to in order to maintain a constant feed of return water. All in all, I believe in the loop.

Charlie from wmass

Lots of good steam guys in Mass

Infact we export them to other states in need. Many guys only use the vents the wholesaler has. Gortons are not that popular in Mass. Hoffman and vent rite are everywhere and lots of maids lost in the mist from the orange box and local hardware stores.

Big-Al_2

I'm not so sure.

With or without a Hartford Loop, the drip return from the main would enter the equalizer below the boiler waterline.  Without the loop it would enter at the base of the equalizer, even further below the waterline.  I don't see how that could possibly worsen water hammer in the equalizer.  It should improve it.  If you piped the drip return in at the top of the equalizer, not the bottom, then it might do bad things, but that's not the way the one in the photos above is piped.



As far as the Hartford Loop bringing the drip return further to the floor . . . remember that it goes back up again.  The water level in the drip return would be at boiler level piped either way.  With the Hartford Loop, the returning condensate would actually have to negotiate even more pipe, so flow would actually be a little more restricted.  The Hartford Loop is essentially an P-trap  . . . so it will gradually sludge up and get even more restrictive.  It's better to leave it out if you don't need it.



The Hartford Loop serves a purpose only in a wet return.  The only reason to put one in a dry return is to pacify an ignorant inspector, or to meet a local code that does not distinguish wet returns from dry, or to increase the piping cost of an installation  . . . not because there is a valid, scientific reason to put one in.

JStar

How I see it...

I want that extra restriction in the Hartford Loop. Most guys pipe the loop tee into the equalizer by strictly following that 2-4" inch rule. So what happens when the boiler is running for hours and you're losing water up into the system. Or the water starts surging. With a dry return (no loop), what's going to stop that return drop from becoming a steam line if the water gets close, or falls below the loop tee? At least with a loop, you have a constant water column putting pressure into the return.



But this is just how I see it. I am open to correction.

TheMadScientist

Found

I found a local supplier for gortons, but they have a min order.   I have a friend that needs some, so we are going to combine what we need in one order and hope it meets the min.

Big-Al_2

Pipe into the bottom

When the drop from the dry return comes down, just pipe it into the bottom of the equalizer, not partway up.  Instead of an elbow at the bottom of the equalizer, use a tee with the side-branch up for the equalizer, and continue horizontally to connect to the return drop.  You'll have the full waterline depth in the drop to keep steam out of the return and no low spot in the piping to collect debris.  If you use another tee to make the vertical connection to the return drop instead of an elbow, you can even install a clean-out plug or a valve there for future flushing.  That's the way I'd do it anyway . . . simple and clean . . . but I don't claim to be a steam pro.   I'm just a mechanical engineer who grew up working in a maintenance shop.  (And I'd still rather have a wrench in my hand than a freakin' clipboard.)

JStar

...

Now we're on the same page. I agree with that piping method; a horizontal tee to join the return and equalizer at the level of the return tapping.

Patrick McGrath

Gorton Vents

I called and ordered directly from Gorton.  They will sell you whatever you need, and they didn't mention a minimum order.  They are really nice folks, too (you can return what doesn't work out if you so desire).  Good luck.



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