East Coast IBC Boiler Experiences, anyone?

Constantin

So, it's decision time for the mod-con switchover. My two top contenders are the Lambda Pro from Viessmann (WB2-31) and the VFC 15-150 from IBC in Vancouver. Both boilers appear to be well-built and we'll likely be happy with either. What would sway you, one way or the other - and I do not want to start a quasi-religious war here, let's stick to facts re: performance and leave politics out of the discussion. That is, no bashing based on origin of appliance, unions, private/public ownership, please.



As I see it, the Viessmann has the benefit of a local warehouse in RI as well as a well-established cadre of folk who have been trained to work on them. The engineering behind the unit is top-notch, the gas valve, etc. get high marks from everyone. Additionally, Viessmann offers a complete package, i.e. LLH, vent pipe, etc. that makes making mistakes on the BOP side of things more difficult.



On the downside, the Viessmann modulation range is a bit more constricted than on the VFC and there is a lot of flow resistance through the boiler, requiring a big pump to keep the Δ-T low and to maximize efficiency. With return temps in the low 90's, we should be OK even with a 30* Δ-T.



The VFC has a heat exchanger with a lower flow resistance and a much wider modulation range. Additionally, the unit can control the speed of the primary-loop circulator to maintain ΔT via a 0-10VDC signal. The heat exchanger appears equivalent in terms of materials (316Ti) but is arranged in a vertical orientation, perhaps reducing the amount of gunk that can clog it up. The control system is perhaps a bit easier to learn, though I have been to the Vitotronic school, so it's not as important to me...



On the downside, IBC does not seem to have a big presence in the Northeast of the USA. Additionally, most BOP components have to be sized and sourced by the contractor, opening us up for potential issues that a integrated solution like the Viessmann will not present. Plus, where would I get spare parts (as needed)?



Venting options on both units are fine for our application though I would prefer a concentric vent with a grill cover over the two-pipe system that IBC uses - I like the added security that the grill on the Viessmann vent offers against accidental damage. Viessmann documentation in general appears superior, offering up more wiring examples, etc.



Should the size of an operation (i.e. revenue footprint) be a consideration in terms of who to choose to buy from? How about localized power supplies? The Viessmann still seems to use a step-up transformer.



So, which way would you lean? IIRC, the price points of these two fine appliances are similar. The house is heated all-radiant and typical return temperatures from the zones at this time of year are in the high 80's low 90's. Is there perhaps another boiler that you like even better? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

heatboy

I have tried a few times........

...to contact IBC a few times by Email and filing out their online form, but have never been contacted.  I was interested in offering them once I received manuals and such to read.  So, you now know my vote.  Maybe they don't need any east coast guys?

CMadatMe

No Experience

At all with IBC and know of nobody that has every installed one to ask. Plenty of experience with the new Vitodens 200's. You won't be displeased. You could use a Grundfoss Alpha pump for your system side. The boiler pump is just a Grundfoss 15-58 and I would recommend a Vitotrol. Best of luck..

Gordan

Chris

In the ODR configuration, is there a way to set up the Vitotronic so that the boiler pump only runs when the boiler is firing (and post-purge) as opposed to all the time? This would seem like it would decrease electrical consumption when the heat load is a fraction of the min. boiler output.

Constantin

Wow...

I'm surprised that the company didn't even follow up with you. On the other hand, their web site hasn't changed much in years - perhaps letters are going into the bitbucket rather than a human beings' e-mail in-box? It's one reason to call folk rather than rely on an imperfect electronic messenger service... All that said, it means that the company has some sort of representation issue on the East Coast of the US.



As others have noted, the perfect boiler doesn't exist. Take modulation: The wider the range, the theoretically better the fuel efficiency and/or load matching characteristic of the boiler. Anno 2004, NTI offered a 16:1 modulation range on their Trinities, that's down now to 5:1 (I wonder what made them change that). Other manufacturers are also generally sticking to 4 or 5 to 1 modulation ranges, so the VFC is different. But not necessarily better - there could be very good technical reasons for NTI and others to now offer a narrower modulation range than they did previously.



At AHRI, I saw some very interesting combustion technologies. I wonder how long it will take them to make it into production and whether they will or will not change the modulation ranges offered in boilers and furnaces.

Constantin

Some of the changes seem to include:

The elimination of the integral pump from all Vitodens models.

Move to Metal Matrix burner (cylindrical) from dome burner.

Upgrade to Lambda-Pro combustion control

Upgraded Venting blower system.

Wider modulation range (5:1 vs. 4:1)



Have I missed something? The new Vitotronic 300 controller seems to be a Euro-only product at this point.



An integral VS-pump is a nifty feature, but not a must have. IIRC, Viessmann does not offer an external VDC/mA signal like IBC does to control an external pump. I'll look over the installation manual one more time to be sure.

Unknown

Just curious Constantin,,,,

While the Viessmann unit seems to have great approval here,, I have not heard much too-bad about the IBC (other than their marketing),,,, these units carry a "hefty price-tag", and seem to offer little more than "others" as far as efficiency & warranty,, is that not what we`re all looking-for these days?



I understand you have done alot of homework, but I fail to see why you would choose one "Cadillac" over the other, when a "Lincoln" can do the same thing. ;-)

 

Constantin

Interesting Point

The actual abilities of a boiler aside, if a customer is looking for a high-end boiler, should they be advised to go with a less expensive unit?



To me, the IBC unit offers a lot on paper that make it a compelling competitor to the Viessmann unit. However, I have also advised folk consistently here to go with boiler systems (regardless of manufacturer) with which the local supply base is familiar, for which spare parts are available, which their installer has put in before, and which can be maintained by (preferably factory-trained) local folk. On that basis alone, the Viessmann beats the IBC hands down in this locale. That is not to say that IBC won't expand in the future to also cover the east coast of the USA, but they don't seem to have a presence here now.



As to whether either unit offers a lot more than its lower-cost competitors, that is also a good question. The value of features like the lambda control, 316Ti heat exchanger, controller, etc. likely varies by customer. Me, I haven't seen another boiler out there where the cost savings over the course of an install make up for the loss in features. What would you install, and why?

MIke_Jonas

It's not the brand

It's the installation and support after the installation.

Robert O'Brien

I have no

experience with IBC  whatsoever . If were to put a mod/con in my own home,my first choice would be the Vitodens 200,I love the Viessmann HX and no one else has the Lambda Pro.Second would be between the Vitodens 100 and Triangle Tube Prestige. The perception that Viessmann is pricey is outdated,they had a huge price decrease last year when the new models were introduced.The 200 is less than a few competitors and the 100 is an absolute steal,superior HX at an unbelievable price! Since I have no gas available the Vitodens and Prestige will have to remain in my dreams!

CMadatMe

Dave

What do you mean by a "Cady" and a "Lincoln"? Price Point or Quality?

Unknown

Well Constantin,,,,,

I would never try to out-talk Robert, but I am a TT Prestige kinda guy.



The Vito is excellent, but if you look-at #1 HX design, I think it is a great "value for the buck", and offers the same warranty,,,,,, besides, in 20 years they`ll both be trash anyway!,,,,, what would anyone gain? Any warranty?



Would this make a difference at the dump site?

CMadatMe

Boiler Pump

The boiler pump only runs on a call for heat. There is no "TT" on the boiler. The boiler pump operates, burner fires once flow is sensed via the temp sensor in the low loss header. In othe words when the system side pump has a call and starts to circulate the boiler automatically fires. If your looking for some electrical savings I would suggest using a Grundfos Alpha or equiv type pump as your system side pump.

The boiler pumps only job is to get water across the boiler You have to  remember that the boiler pump Viessmann recommends via the price book is for a 40 degree delta-t. If you want a 20 across the boiler you have to change the pump to an awful big one.



 Another feature in the control is modulation control. You can limit the boiler high output and low output. You can also set upto 4 heatings phases per day if you wanted.There is alot you can do its all up to what you want.

Unknown

As much as I agree with Mike Jonas,,,,

Constantin is nobody`s fool,,,, he has done his homework & is asking questions,,,, bravo to him!  :-)

CMadatMe

Triangle

Dave I think they have a nice little boiler. I do have question. Why do contractors seem to gravitate to the boiler? Is it because every wholesaler on the block carries it? Is it because of the ability to not have to pri/sec?

I ask because what I am see everyday is that it has turned into a commodity. No different then a typical 3 section oil w/coil.  Everyone carries it and it is being sold by whomever has the best price. Do you find that you are always competing with your competition based on price? Just curious because it's path to success is similiar to what Buderus did. Saturate the marketplace.

Unknown

Price Point, or Quality,,,,

Chris,,,, I`m surprised you even ask that,,,,, IF the customer has a FAT WALLET, then install an expensive system,,,,, appreciative or not, what would he care,, he just wants heat!



Constantin appears to want constant-heat & perhaps a simple control issue, at a moderate price for his home,,, what`s wrong with that?



I only said what I said, so he could think about options,, not makes.

CMadatMe

Was just Curios

Wasn't attacking just curious.

Unknown

Chris

Not really,,,,,as Mike Jonas said,,,,,  it's the installation and support after the installation.



If you (as an installer) know what you sell,,,, and can  save the customer on installation cost,, whats the problem?



Would "overselling" not be a negative?

CMadatMe

I was just

Gurious because the price of an equiv to the PS110 in Viessmanns world is the just about the same.

Unknown

Thanks Chris,,,,,,

You`re a great guy!   ;-)

hot_rod

parts availability

would be a concern. I really like the folks behind the IBC but getting parts across the border with customs and all, can be a hassle. Especially when you are in a hurry



I had heard that the IBC was migrating down into the NW part of the US. Last I talked with them the bigger US market was not on their radar screen.



hr

Paul Pollets

How old??

Constantin, how old is your vitodens?  why replace it so soon?  The new Vitodens WB2B is sweet, but no longer uses the Matrix burner.  The Lambda gas valve and better venting features make the Vitodens more competitive. The internal smart pump was eliminated and the computer upgraded to the Vitotronic platform.  Parts are very available where you are (But surprisingly, not easy to get on the W.Coast)

Plumdog_2

How soon we forget

The shine hasn't worn off Miss Vitola yet! And how about a heated discussion on metallurgy?

Constantin

Don't worry!

Ms. Vitola will find a new home, along with her oil tanks, etc. So I'm not replacing a Vitodens, I'm simply engaging in a platform change from near-condensing oil to condensing, modulating gas. In 2003 when I made the equipment choices here, I thought oil and gas would return to their historic Northeast differentials - oil has been traditionally 40% less expensive per BTU than gas. But instead, the gas market has significantly increased supply (driving prices down) while the oil market has had persistently high costs.



With the deficits at all levels of government being as high as they are, I suspect that the USA will experience revaluations of the dollar in the future, further driving up the cost of imports of all kinds - oil, heating equipment, etc. So now seemed like a good time to get the heating plant converted to gas and to redo some of the near boiler piping too - variable speed circulators, some open zones (like bathrooms) to keep the toesies happy, etc.



The Maine project I helped with made me a believer re: low-mass mod-cons. Now it's my house's turn. Ms. Vitola will find a new home, just like Mike Mulligans beloved steam shovel. Multiple folk have expressed an interest in her and the BOP, so I'd like to think that this great boiler will make someone else happy for years to come.  Properly maintained, I think she'll outlast most of us.

Constantin

Hah!

Yeah, she's still quite shiny. Nothing wrong with her, other than the cutout issue that I have documented extensively on oiltechtalk. I suspect it's the solenoid valve on the Suntec pump. But, assuming a good tech takes her in, I imagine that the solenoid repair will be an easy and inexpensive fix... No, the problem is the fuel switch and the efficiency that she'd be running at in order not to condense.



Right now, our stack temperatures are around 240-250*F and the boiler allegedly achieves a near 90% efficiency. If we converted Ms. Vitola to gas, I estimate we'd be dropping down to 86% and we wouldn't get the benefits of modulation. With modulation comes low-mass, another benefit re: standby losses. So, long term, I believe it's better to install an appliance that has been optimized for gas performance.



Let's see how well we fare this time.... rien ne va plus...

Glen Aspen_2

Having installed both -

I must say I like them both. I will also admit that I have been off the tools for about 2 years so changes have happened that I may not be aware of. The move to achieve a price point via burner changes, integral changes to circuitry etc have diminished the Viessmann product a certain degree - but has it diminished it sufficiently to dismiss it? Not yet. The IBC has 3 temperature outputs (DHW & 2 heating zones) that is achieved by PS piping which I really liked in my last commercial install (so if your system is radiant and DHW that leaves one output for the hottub htex!) The boiler itself is very robust with very user friendly setup and calibration; downside - it is a bear to setup on propane whereas the Viessmann is a simple orifice change. Regardless of boiler though it is the understanding of the installer that can make either sing; both (here on the west coast) have excellent customer service and that may make the lack of a IBC rep in your backyard the real stubling block. Both will make you smile when it comes time to pay your utility bill.

Constantin

Hmmm... makes me wonder...

... if this wouldn't be a great brand for RST to pick up and grow.  That is, if Rich and his crew are still willing to nurture a brand...



On balance, the wider modulation range vs. the older series and the greater flexibility re: venting are probably the two big improvements. Lambda Pro is a great feature for the markets in which gas quality is variable, but probably not a must-have.



I'm not a great fan of the step-up transformer inside the power module of the Vitodens, but can see why they'd elect to go down that path rather than redesign the Vitodens from the ground up for 120VAC operation. The biggest likely stumbling block is the VS combustion blower fan, maybe it's not even available in a 120VAC format (not that many are compared to 240VAC units). So, some electrical standby loss there... oh well.



But most importantly, many thanks to you and everyone else for their thoughts on the IBC VFC and the new WB2 series from Viessmann. I appreciate all the responses!

SpeyFitter

IBC doesn't have much of an east coast presence in the USA just yet

I've installed many and am extremely familiar with IBC. I have a good relationship with the staff at their head office for support/questions/maintenance parts where they are made in Vancouver BC, and have the Presidents cell phone # in my company phone (if ever needed, but he's usually fairly busy these days as IBC has grown substantially). Little to no expierience with the Vitodens boilers, but never felt it was needed.

IBC recently changed some of their website content and they now have a USA presence with some representation and a few dedicated contractors who are installing their product but their presence on the East Coast of USA is little to none currently as far as I know anyways. If you had a problem you wouldn't have a local rep to come to you and deal with it or help you is what I'm saying, and it'd be over the phone. However the issues I have seen in servicing some of these are generally few and far between and very easy to fix (typically something getting sucked into the intake like a piece of construction debris which blocks a reference port) I think the IBC is a great boiler but good local support is also important and in your case I would probably select the Viessmann assuming you have a good local rep where you live. 

IF this turns out to be a comparison, the IBC does have the largest heat exchanger per BTUH on the market in my opinion (for condensing boilers that is). They have a 3 pass/coil design instead of one pass like the Viessmann and the Giannoni designs (3 rows of heat exchanger coiled around each other in a downfiring set up). This huge heat exchanger is the exact same burner/heat exchanger set up for their 15-150 and 45-225 models. It doesn't offer the best AFUE but it does offer the most consistent efficiency accross the modulation range; you will see pretty much the same efficiencies (via flue gas analysis) at max fire, as at the lowest firing range because the heat exchanger can soak it up well. The Vitodens and Giannoni designs typically see very good efficiencies at their low fire and the efficiency drops off significantly at high fire rates.  Coupled with the high turndown ratio of the 15-150 and you're laughing, especially on those shoulder days.

Constantin

Thank you!

Sounds to me like the IBC brand may be coming this way soon. Installing a brand without local representation works OK - until you need a part in the dead of night. That said, many brands and their representatives have been accused of running inventories too tightly, causing frequent parts shortages. Soon, we may all depend on UPS/FedEx/TNT/whatever to deliver all parts since no-one will stock anything locally anymore. Nuts. That said, the local Viessmann warehouse (where they keep all US inventory) is but an hour away.



Your comment re: the Vitodens HX did make me review its efficiency curve. FWIW, with our return temperatures (usually mid 80's), the Vitodens will achieve an AFUE ranging from about 98.5% (low fire) to 96% (full fire). That's good enough for me. However, for folk with marginal emitter installs (be it baseboard, staple-up, etc.) the efficiency can dip as low as 87%.



A self-cleaning HX (insofar that something like that can exist) is a really nice feature and the IBC design seems better suited toward flushing out contaminants on its own than the Vitodens HX (or any horizontally-fired condensing boiler).  The higher input range of the VFC is also tasty.



Incidentally, I ran across the Vitodens 300W design spec (only available in Europe) and it uses the spherical burner, has an integral variable-speed pump, 5-1 turndown, and Lambda-Pro, etc. So the VB2 design lives on, though not in a form that is available on this side of the pond. Maybe they'll offer the 300 series eventually too in the US, but I imagine that the economy will have to improve significantly.

Steve Ebels_3

Thinking down the road...........

I believe I would probably select the Viessmann for no other reason than the burner. If everything else was equal or nearly so, that alone would make my choice. I think that in upcoming years we will have issues with BTU content of natural gas as well as variations in formulation due to blending of LNG with normal field generated gas. Pressure variations will probably also become more of an issue due to a greater number of users tapping into current distribution piping. Those things are simply not an issue with the new Vito burner. I have been told that it will produce full rated output all the way down to 2" w.c. on natural and less than 6" on LP.  It will also adjust for variations in btu content which I have commonly observed on LP gas installations. Blended natural gas products are bound to produce the same variations IMHO and no other burner out there with the possible exception of a pulse type can digest that as easily as the Vito.

Paul Pollets

Conversion

If I had an oil-fired Vitola, I'd be changing out the burner for the gas-fired Viessmann chassis burner.  Then you would have minimum costs and could use the existing near-boiler piping and venting.  You would have to change the coding card in the Vitotronic control.  While a mod-con would increase efficiency, you'd want to carefully consider the payback. 

bwa

IBC boiler

IBC is an easy choice compared to Viessmann. The integrated 3 load control (all english) is simple and does not cost extra. 10 to 1 turn down modulation. Venting with PVC, even 2". IBC does not allow concentric vent because on low fire 15,000 BTU they don't want exhaust sucked into the intake so separation must be minimum 24 inches. Total installed cost is less than Viessmann because no extras to buy. Richard Trethewy is the IBC rep in New England, the man who made Viessmann in the US. He will tell you why IBC is a better boiler.



We have installed over 100 IBC boilers in the western US plus two in NY City with no issues. We also have all spare parts.

Burt Adams

Adams Engineering

bwadams2@msn.com

Hammer21

IBC BOILER

I work for a wholesaler in Minnesota who took on the IBC Boiler, and although, Triangle Tube, Lochinvar, Viesmann, Peerless have a following along with the rest of them, I no doubt in my mind that IBC will be taking a lot of business away. There boilers not only have a heat exchanger with the largest surface area and great efficiency, but their control board is second to none. The one thing I have learned in my short time dealing with the company, they have some of the best in the industry with, great WET HEADS!!

Give them a try, you will happy you did.

Hammer21

IBC BOILER

I work for a wholesaler in Minnesota who took on the IBC Boiler, and although, Triangle Tube, Lochinvar, Viesmann, Peerless have a following along with the rest of them, I no doubt in my mind that IBC will be taking a lot of business away. There boilers not only have a heat exchanger with the largest surface area and great efficiency, but their control board is second to none. The one thing I have learned in my short time dealing with the company, they have some of the best in the industry with, great WET HEADS!!

Give them a try, you will happy you did.

archibald tuttle

rebooting the IBC/Veissman comparison

Constantin,



what did you decide? i read the whole novel but the thrilling conclusion is missing.



meantime, I am facing very similar decision half a year later after first encounter with IBC at the GasNetworks show on Thursday. They now have the distributor presaged in the thread (RST) and a few conneticut and massachusetts supply houses on board, none in RI yet, but thats typical. (maybe they are giving Veissman a wide berth :-))



Of course I found the veissman options impressive (and they were the first display into the room) but I got all the way around the room and IBC was the last display and I really liked everything about those boilers. I think there is less air pressuredrop in their heat exchanger as well as less water pressure drop and yet they have enough heat exchanging area to perfom equally.



I'm think two 15/150s would take care of the job I'm working on. with a buffer tank one could take the place through most of the season on its own.  I've got that kind of redundancy in other staged installs but without the advantage of 1:10 modulating.



I also like the multiple reset profiles control option for different loads.



the only thing that would benefit most of these applications would be set-up for intelligent load monitoring such as the teledyne controls provide so it can learn the best reset profiles from experience. Of course some inference can be drawn indirectly from delta Ts but I like the concept of control logic that can directly monitor the final effect.



also, staging, if you use their built in controls, is dependent on the board in the primary unit so if you have a failure there both multiple units go off -- doesn't have that christmas tree light thing where if one light goes out the rest stay on (that is only in the event of board failure, maybe that is a non-issue vs. other operational failures that would allow slave boilers to continue to operation. I've been impressed with the cost and robustness of the teledyne staging reset controls -  sans the responsiveness I mentioned above, that is still outside my price range even though I'm pining for wider adoption (which like reset controls will bring the price down) and when a relatively new line of boilers is out I'd always like to see that their controls are not demonstrating any early failures --- any reports?)



Bottom line is, 6 months out, any other reports on the IBC installs, likely parts failures, relibability of ignition system, etc. vs. veissman esp. 



What about dropping to entry level units.  i think the Veissman 100 series and I forget the IBC line.  I think Veissman might have the edge there. The IBC goes back to the 400 stainless and doesn't have the same turndown or exchanger specs.



thanks,



brian

Constantin

Went with Viessmann

At the time, IBC were not represented by RST and hence had no real presence on the East coast for spare parts, etc. Two months later and the decision would have been a lot more difficult!



I have been very happy with Mr. Vitodens but with RST backing IBC now, I see no reason to take a very close look at their offering as well. The AFUE of the Vitodens is higher, as I recall but the main benefit of modulation is present in both units. Plus, some of the IBCs have a wider modulation range, which is pretty nifty for those who want to heat a small home and still have the capacity to heat a lot of water quickly as needed.



So I'd sit down and think about what features matter to me and then compare the units. Mr. Vitodens is about to get his annual checkup so I'm very interested to see how the HX looks one year after being installed...

Jim Godbout

Very good experience with IBC

we are huge viessmann installers but IBC has it's place especially in large commercial jobs such as this one we recently finished

very dependable

see photo

Jim