Air to Water Heat Pump

Bobcat_2

Anything good or bad to say about the Altherma by Daikin?  As a boiler guy these systems sound intriguing especially when DHW can be connected successfully.  We do multi-temperature systems, ie. radiant floors, wall panels, DHW and snowmelt.  I'm interested in listening to someone who does similar work and has experience with this (or other similar) product(s).

NRT_Rob

interesting so far

output drops off fast at very cold outdoor temps and it's expensive. they claim good COPs though.



we are about to have one installed in our new shop project in the next few weeks where it will be doing heating and cooling with only the electric backup built in. we have a 35kBTU peak heating load at -3 deg F. outdoor and a 40-45kBTU peak cooling load. we're using the 054 split unit.



no practical field experience to report yet though, sorry.

Bobcat_2

That helps...

A 35K heat load would do about 1000 to 1,500 sq.ft. here.  A shop or warehouse will use less Btus/sqft..  How do you cool with this Unit?  Fan-coil?  Our cooling load is pretty much non-existant with maybe one week (or two) in the 90's+.  Coldest this winter -15 so far, although our average coldest is -5 to zero; (pretty weird year from the weather department).  Our average winter temps usually 30-40 day and 20-30 nights.   We are 3-4,000 ft elevation, east slope of the Cascade mountains in the high desert.



In your opinion, is it worth the expense to embrace heat-pump technology with the parameters I've given? or is this the nature of the beast?   Folks are screaming for greater efficiencies like GTHP.  Unfortunately, we are on rock around here and everything else is volcanic sand without much density.  Drilling wells adds up tambien.



Thanks in advance for your input.  Bobcat

NRT_Rob

sorry for the slow response

didn't have email notification



without cooling I don't really see the economy of this technology given the current pricing of the units. However... I have not really seen the true performance either, but that's assuming the seasonal COP of 3 is real.



a lot depends on the fuel costs of your area. if your average winter temps are usually that high though, you could be in good shape.



this is brand spanking new stuff though, so there is always that. any client would need to understand that up front.



We are doing a combination radiant cooling and hydronic air coil for dehumidification in a "DOAS" system with an ERV. but it just produces chilled water, so any chilled water cooling method should work if you are doing cooling.

Techman

Altherma

Daikin has the software for plugging in the energy cost comparisons vs. oil vs.condensing boilers,but,the comparisons vs.the cond boilers are against a boiler that condenses all the time.Not many cond boilers cond all the time so the numbers are a little more in Daikins favor in actuality.So far the units are only low temp,131* , if memory serves me right, hi temp 176*[?] should be out in a year or two . Ther is a special two day class comming up in late April and I plan on being there .The unit have been working in Europe for about 5 years, and 150 units or so up in New Hampshire for just under a year . I'll try them.

Bobcat_2

Trying to keep up

I'm attending the class in Irvine also, but mine is the beginning of the month.  The DHW delivery temps sound too good to be true??  And I heard 170* too.  Altherma's  hybrid approach sounds pretty reasonable.  The limited Btu heat production they offer, (55K), should work for a "high performance" home with a smallish footprint.  This seems to be a trend, building smaller homes.  Looks like a good way to focus on utilizing solar thermal, heat-pump, elec. backup as long as the hardware/control boards can hack it.  New product worries.  Involved in a project that can only use energy created at the sight.  No utility connection and building materials must pass muster.  It is called Living something.   

Techman

Altherma

a  couple of outdoor units can be teamed up into a larger water storage tank for the larger applications. our class is here on long island

Bobcat_2

Double your pleasure, double your fun

OK, east coast.  Our class is west coast.  Thanks for the comment for increase output.  I'll definitely keep that in mind.  Regards.

NRT_Rob

I've seen the new hampshire units

and everything in american hydronics has been "in use in europe for 15 years".



that doesn't mean much for the first run american products.



I have one in my shop right now about to fire up for friday, but I am not expecting a totally problem free system. I hope I'm wrong, but I've been early to the dance before and I know the score, and I'm fine with it... as are many clients.



informed consent is important, that's all. Whether it's new or new to you, the client deserves to know that.