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Radiator gurgle - pitch - slope -- spud

ccddo
ccddo Member Posts: 11
Ok.  Here is some history: bought a old home a year ago.  The master bedroom radiator was not heating with the others, so the seller had a plumber come out to "fix it"... I now know he was a "knucklehead" (nice guy, but not a steam guy).  When he "fixed" it he ended up putting in a new valve.   (Photo)  The raditor was still not great.  So, I began reading... seems like the orginal problem was more of a pitch issue.  Anyway, I added some pitch, and put on a very fast vent (gordon, drilled a bit bigger)....



The radiator has always made a gugling noise.  I now know it is a condensate issue.   At this point, I am not sure if it is a pitch issue / vent issue/ valve-spud issue or bad radiator issue.  It gurgles very lound and does not heat as well as the rest of hte house.



When the plumber replaced the value he replaced the spud.  I discontined the rad the other day, and with my finger, I could feel a ledge inside the rad where the spud ends.... see photo... I am inclined to think this might be the issue.  Thoughts?

Also, when the rad was disconnected, I tilted it... a slight tilt drained some condensate... bigger tilt (think 30 degrees of slope) drained more... so I am thinking the rad itself is collecting the condensate.

For reference, photos of a level with the current pitch are attached... valve side, middle and vent side. The rad has 14 fins.



This think is so noisey (gurgle -- not water hammer) it wakes me up every morning...

If the rad needs to be replaced, I will replace it.  Anyone know where I can find  a replacement in Philadelphia area (with dellivery)?

Any help would be graetly apprecitated.

Comments

  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    How Big

    How big is the rad?  Maybe the hand valve isn't large enough to supply it. 
  • ccddo
    ccddo Member Posts: 11
    size

    Rad is 14 fins (is fins the correct term?) 
  • Gurgle

     Just a few questions that maybe of help determining what is happening. I can't tell that well from the picture, what size is valve and piping going into the radiator?

    Is the "gurgling" just on start up or all the time when the burner is on? You mentioned that it wakes you  in the morning, does this occur after a period of setback on your thermostat? if so how many degrees setback do you use?

    Have you tried a smaller (slower) radiator vent? 

    - Rod
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Rad size

    Ok the rad has 14 sections.  How many tubes per section?  What are the dimensions of the rad?  Post some more pictures front and side views?



    Mark
  • ccddo
    ccddo Member Posts: 11
    timing

    It gugles after setback on themo -- 5 degree setback  --  and the entire heating cycle. 

    If I run the heat hot for a long time (I think) the gugle resolves. 

    I just put on a slower vent, and turned the heat back on.  (Although this has not corrected the problem in the past).
  • ccddo
    ccddo Member Posts: 11
    sizes

    Rad is 34 inches -- photo



    Valve is -- see photo
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,567
    looks like a 1 on that valve ..

    the valve looks like it has a "1" on it .. chances are it's 1in in both directions .. i would crack the bottom bushing out of the rad (likely a 1 1/4) and put a bigger valve on .. 1 x 1 1/4 (or if you have a reducer on your pipe coming out of floor you might be able to get a 1-1/4 x 1-1/4)
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Gurgling

    Hi- I "tweeked" your picture a bit so it was clearer and can now see that it is a 1 inch valve and 1 inch supply pipe. This is considered a little bit on the small side for a one pipe steam system. Most, as jpf, mentioned are 1 1/4 inch.

    What is happening is the condensate (water) exiting the radiator is interfering with the steam entering the radiator. This apparently isn't bad enough to cause "hammer " but is causing "gurgling".  When the radiator is cold (early morning) the steam entering the radiator is rapidly condensing on the cold inner walls of the radiator which produces large amounts of condensate and vacuum. The vacuum causes even more steam to rush into the radiator.The rushing steam going in and the huge amount of condensate going out is causing your problem. You mentioned that if the heat is run hot for a long time the gurgling stops this is because the radiator is warm so the condensing of the steam slows down.



    Possible ideas that might help. You might want to try them singly or all together

    Slow the venting down. - This means the steam enters the radiator more slowly with less condensate produced.

    Don't use as much setback on your thermostat. That way the radiator isn't as cold so the steam won't condense as quickly.

    You might try raising your radiator a bit. What I've seen happen, especially when you add a new valve, is the the new valve is a bit higher then the original  and when the radiator is attached, the slope from the valve goes very slightly downhill towards the radiator. When you then slope the radiator it may form a slight "valley" in the pipe between the radiator and the valve. Check carefully and see if this might be happening between your valve and radiator.

    The cure for this is raise (shim) the whole radiator a bit to bring the valve end up level with the pipe (or even a tiny bit higher ) and then add shimming as you normally would to get the radiator sloped so the condensate flow out.

    - Rod
  • arches
    arches Member Posts: 52
    valve sizes

    Have you encountered an asymetrical radiator valve? I was looking around for one, but I've only seen 1"x1" or 1.25" x 1.25".   Thought about using a 1 x 1.25" reducer bushing on the supply line (into a 1.25" x 1.25" valve), but wasn't so fond of creating another potential leak point.
  • ccddo
    ccddo Member Posts: 11
    Thanks

    Thanks for all the input.  I have slowed the vent -- some help, but did not resolve the issue. 



    The Rad was already raised a bit -- shimed up to match up with the valve. 



    If the valve is under sized, how big of a job is it to swamp it out with a correctly sized valve? 

    Since this Rad is in the Master bedroom, I'd really like to get it functioning as well as the rest of the house -- which all heat very well and very quitely.



    Thanks



    KNT
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,567
    no i guess not

    i thought I had but I guess not .. the other thing you can try is a reducing elbow and then a straight valve. 
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
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