Where are we on the Gorton #2 quality?

Brian_74

I need to order another main vent to supplement the ones I already have. A few weeks ago (when I should've ordered it), I would have bought a Gorton #2 based on the consensus here. Now it seems like folks are having quality control issues with them. Should I order a Gorton now, wait, or order a Hoffman? What would you do?

steam-rookie

Gorton#2`s

I am still waiting for my G2`s from Pex Supply. They have been on back-order for almost 2 weeks now. I am hopping that the reason for the back-order was a recall, and I will be getting the G2`s from the new factory fresh batch.

jpf321

SR....

steam-rookie --



as I mentioned, get them from a local supply house and cancel your order with Pex .. i have done this before. you just need to call pex and they will cancel and you can get them for within a few bucks price from one of the local supply houses .. I mentioned Gil Meyerowitz in a prevous post .. you can also try AMAF on LIE Service Rd West (near Kissena Blvd) .. or Sid Harvey's (Queens Blvd & Hillside Ave)



good luck.

Patrick_North

Backorders?

The last 3-4 orders I've made through pexsupply have been almost entirely "on backorder." Instead of a recall (the majority of folks- including myself- have consistently positive views of Gortons) I'd guess it's more likely that they are playing the "how low can we keep our inventory" game.

Patrick

Brian_74

I think it's waiting season

I hope you get them soon. Let us know whether you have any quality issues.



FWIW, I just picked up the traps I ordered 3+ weeks ago from my local distributor. I think that in my case it was a (now former) employee problem, but 'tis the season for heating repairs.

steam-rookie

Order has shipped

Just got an email from pex that the order has shipped.

Thanks for the other suggestions on where to get them.  I tried Blackman and another huge supply house by me. All they stock is Hoffman. Queens is a little to far for me, but thanks.

I had the day off today so I went back to Allstate Insulation in Hicksville, and picked up another 10 pcs. of the 1" thick pipe wrap. I installed it and it looks great. I also tried out one of the PVC tee covers/with insert. It worked very well, once you get the hang of trimming it. I think that's it for the insulation for this year. Every inch of main is covered now and all of the risers are done too.

jpf321

OH .. hicksville

when you said you went to allstate last time, i thought you meant in Maspeth .. my apologies .. could you "contact me" directly with the price and dimensions of their PVC T's covers.



thanks

steam-rookie

pvc T covers w/ insert

They were 3.25 each.  I had to trim them down to get a nice tight fit. They also came with the tape strips. Great deal.

STEAM DOCTOR

local dealer

i get mine from franks supply in inwood(516-371-3100). if they don't have them in stock they will properly order them and have them for you in a day or two. if they are defective they will properly take them back. call before you go because they may have different policies for customers with accounts.

jpf321

what size PVC covers?

what size were the T covers you bought? 3" 2" 1.25"?



thanks

lutorm

I'm 4/4 on bad...

I've resigned to living with the leaking one because I'm tired of sending it back. I'm just going to see how much liquid I'm losing.



On a related note, I replaced all my old "Vent-Rite" radiator vents with Hoffman 1A's, since they were in various states of disrepair. The Hoffmans seem much less reliable, they often hiss without clicking shut properly or click on/off every 2 second for minutes at a time. Is anyone else seeing the same thing?

steam-rookie

Size of covers

The size of the T covers is determined by the thickness of the pipe wraps. In my case I used 1' thick pipe covers for a 2' main. They have a chart at Allstate that determines the cover size from there. It makes no difference what size riser is tee`ing out of it. You have to custom cut the whole for what ever size pipe tee`s out.

My G2`s are arriving today. I will post picture and results as soon as I get them on.

steam-rookie

G 2`s are installed

The G2`s came today and I have installed them on a new antler. So far the boiler has only kicked on one time after the install

Both G2`s passed the blow test prior to installation

The results of my initial observations did not go well

The G2`s appeared to be venting well as the boiler began to pressure up

I noticed a very distinct new vent smell in the air

As soon as the boiler reached 1.5 psi it shut down, like it always does.

At this point the basement is very quiet and now I can hear the G2`s blowing

They were not spitting, but were very loudly blowing, as though they had never closed.

I will be checking up on my new babies in about an hour, when the heat goes back on. Assuming there is no break in period, and assuming they begin to blow again, I will ask this question now.

Aren't the main vents supposed to close all the way when the boiler has reached its pressure cut off point?

Patrick_North

Not exactly-

They are supposed to close on contact with steam. The vents have no idea what your pressuretrol is set at. While you can easily ruin vents by running at abnormally high pressures, an increase in system pressure will not cause them to close. Generally speaking, you shouldn't see much of a rise in pressure until your main vents are closed.

Are you confident in the accuracy of your pressure gauges and pressuretrol? How does the boiler size compare with attached radiation? If it was already oversized, it just got bigger when you insulated your mains.

I suspect there's something else going on here unrelated to those Gortons.

Good luck,

Patrick

steam-rookie

Something else going on?

The steam is definitely reaching those new G2`s

The pressure gauge and pigtail are brand new

The pressure troll is working correctly 

It cuts off at 1.5 like its supposed to

From my many past posts, it would seem that my boiler is very over-sized

Why would the brand new Gorton G2`s not close?

If we assume that there is nothing wrong with the brand new G2`s, what else could possible be causing this?

Nick_C

Vacuum

When the system turns off due to pressure, those main vents will (should) reopen to allow air back into the system to satisfy the vacuum that occurs when the steam collapses.  Are you sure that steam/air is coming out?  If you are basing this on sound, you may be hearing a (loud) whistle as air rushes into the mains through the vent.

jpf321

try a piece of tissue paper

try using a piece of tissue paper to determine their activity .. see when they are blowing and when they are sucking. also, try briging your boiler up to pressure (2psi?) for a few minutes rather than having it kick off at 1.5 and see what the vents are doing (using the tissue) at/above 1.5psi.

steam-rookie

Vents sucking

 Yes, the vents are sucking. But not air.

I did the tissue test and they are most definitely blowing air/steam out like crazy.

My system does not go into a vacuum until the thermostat is satisfied.

This usually takes about 5 cycles on pressure.

What should i do now?  Is there "something else going on"??

I know my boiler is way over sized, but shouldn't the main vents close up anyway?

jpf321

try ...

try a few squirts of WD-40 into the vent holes .. it may help a bit .. interested to see if it does... what have you got to lose?



the vents *should* be closing when steam temp arrives.

steam-rookie

WD 40

I have considered the wd 40 squirt.

I think It might have more effect if I take them off and squirt it in from the bottom.

What do you think?

I agree that the vents should be closing on steam temp. When I read the original thread on the leaking gortons I hoped that it would not happen to me. It seemed like a good gamble because only one person on this web site was having this problem as compared to the many that have installed the G2`s with out any problems at all. It could be just my bad luck, or it might be something that we are overlooking in my system that is causing this. How could everyone on this site love the G2`s and I got two that wont close? Its a mystery. I hope that Pex supply will change them out for the Hoffman 75`s. They are a bit more money and I will need 4 of them to equal the two G2`s. I will be in contact with Pex to see what they say. I have a feeling though that I`m out 100 bucks. I hope they dont mind that one of them smells like WD40

jpf321

the WD

I think the WD should go in the top .. you really want to coat the top of the bi-metal and the pin/plug that is closing the hole .. did I once see a video, animation, cut-away of the actual workings of a Gorton type vent .. I don't recall ..maybe ROD remembers .. it could also be in my patent list (see link in my sig) anyway, i think the theory with the WD is that it helps to create a better seal between the part that move up and closes against the vent holes .. so going in from the top is probably you best first bet ..



as far as the WD smell .. yeah that could be a problem .. I'm not sure if there is a good way to remove it .. of course you could boil them in white vinegar .. but then they'd have a completely different aroma :-)

steam-rookie

WD 40

Thanks for the tip. From the top. I will try It. I was hoping someone was going to say,  "don't spray those babies. Send them back to Pex for a refund".

Before I spray them I am going to contact Pex and see if they can be exchanged for the Hoffman's.

lutorm

Send back

Pex was good about taking mine back, even paid return shipping. I just got tired of trying.



I did get a response from "Ken" at Gorton in response to my question:



"The Odds of all those valves being defective is very small. They are

tested on live steam before they leave this building. If you'd like,

send me the Valve. I will test it for my own Knowledge. I will make

sure you get one back that is in working order. Sometimes trapped water

in the system due to the plumbing finds it way out the vent, Other times

a large volumn will do the same thing. Send it to the attention of Ken

with your address inside and I will replace it. Thanks Ken"



So I sent one back to them and got one back, but it was no better... It really seems they suck. Maybe they had a batch of completely crappy ones, since people seem to have had better experiences before.



I never tried the wd-40 because I was afraid it would somehow make it down into the boiler with the condensate, and that can't be good for steam quality...

steam-rookie

Return

Good to hear from you Lutorm.  I watched your u tube show. As you know I got the same problem. I just emailed pex to see if they will exchange them for the Hoffman 75`s. I will post what they say here.

If they will take them back I am trying to figure out a way that I can return them.

Once I take them off I will have no vents at all.

Maybe we can work out a deal where they send me the Hoffmans first, and I return the gortons in the same box.

That would involve some degree of trust on their side. People just don't do that anymore. That would be my best bet though, I hope they can do it that way. Lets see what they say. I`ll let you know.

jpf321

SR ..

SR -- you do realize that Pex is located in Farmingdale and when pressed, they will let you go to their location. I was there for a pick-up just before Thanksgiving. I didn't go inside, but someone did come out and provide me the package...i checked it before they went back in and noticed that it was wrong .. so he took it back in and fixed the order (it was wrong due to my own fault, not theirs (all the rad vents I ordered (by phone) were straight and I needed angles) .. they don't like people stopping by, but they bend the rules if the reason is right.



EDIT: .. i just did a bit more digging .. I'm not sure how I got their physical address .. however, I just did a whois on pexsupply and it returns to Yosh Supply or Boys LLC .. and now Yosh supply has the same physical address as hydronic-supply.com and hydronic-supply.com has directions on their website so they must be a counter location .. however, I did look at the Google Street View of the location and that is not the same place that I was at .. I will have to go into my GPS and get you the physical for Pex .. look for another edit shortly.



EDIT2: Pex is located at 20 Central Ave, Farmingdale, NY 11735



EDIT3: [url=http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_76sln8]http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_76sln8 ... shows the address and that the main contact is Josh Meyerowitz (sounds like Yosh Supply) .. and I wonder if he is any relation to Gil Meyerowitz who my favorite local supply house: [url=http://www.meyerowitzsupply.com/]http://www.meyerowitzsupply.com/ .. that would be just too weird, but not too unlikely. How many plumbing supply people are named Meyerowitz?



EDIT 4: In this issue of Master Plumbers of NY Newsletter .. http://nycmpc.org/images/January_2007_Voice.pdf .. it states that Gil Meyerowitz Supply and Hydronic Supply of Copiague LI co-sponsored an event ... the plot thickens .. the fact that Gil Meyerowitz Supply just happened to sponsor an event with Hydronic Supply which is located at the same physical address as the Domain Name registrant of Pex Supply who has a main contact name of Josh Meyerowitz ... it's all a bit too coincidental I'd say ..



OK .. are you following ... now throw into the mix Mr. John Parker, one of the original founders (although his listed position is "webmaster") of http://www.plumbinggoods.com (go there and see what happens, I dare you) .. and if you look in the wayback machine for PlumbingGoods .. wayback to June 2004 .. you will see this blurb in the "about us" : http://web.archive.org/web/20040828130231/www.plumbinggoods.com/index.cfm/action/article.show/id_article/1 ... and guess what NYC Based plumbing supply house has been around for 80+ years? Yep .. Gil Meyerowitz .. and we know that b/c they've been around since 1919 http://www.meyerowitzsupply.com/AboutUs.asp (in 2004 that was 85yrs) ...



I'm done with my exhaustive research on Pex Supply .. sorry for taking up so much space .. but it is pretty interesting that I suggested a few days ago to "get it from Meyerowitz" .. who know that's what you were doing afterall!

steam-rookie

The return

Well, it turns out that Pex supply got back to me right away. They wrote me a very nice email and said that the return would be no problem. They suggested that I place the new order, sent them the new order #, They will then send me a return shipping label, and they are waiving the shipping fee on the new order.

Cant ask for more than that.



Just to be sure, Hoffman 75`s are the biggest Hoffman's available

I will need two 75`s to equal one gorton #2?

gerry gill

Don't take this the wrong way.

i'm not being combative or defensive here..but i install gorton 2 main vents and i order them in by the dozens at a crack..i know they check every one at the factory..i also know that 90 % of the returned vents check out fine..and they do check them..i get perhaps one in a hundred bad vents..i firmly believe with every fiber of my being that you have system issues..perhaps wet steam, perhaps to much pressure, perhaps you need two stage firing, they do close on temperature but can be overpowered by steam pressure..the company has been making these for over a hundred years, don't you think they would have gone out of business if the vents were this bad? at some point you have to say, ''what are the odds of this many bad vents, or is the problem my system''..my gut feeling is your system..my first bet would be steaming to fast and building to much pressure..remember you likely had a coal boiler that produced steam slower and more gently..now, how do you propose to make your current boiler mimic the coal boiler?

steam-rookie

Thank you gerry gill

I have to agree with you. I think you are right, and its not the vents.

I wish that I could figure out whats wrong with my system.

I do not think this boiler ever ran on coal (boiler was installed 1945)

I see no evidence of a coal shoot or coal storage area

The tank and oil fill pipe look original.

Nothing in the basement has ever been changed, or altered in any way

The main, the risers, the convectors, all untouched since the day it went in

Everything on this system is original, The only thing that is new is the pressure gauge.

The system does cycle constantly on the pressure trol

I have the pressure set at 1.5 psi max

Will I ever be able to figure out whats wrong? Probably not

I am counting on you guys to help me figure it out 

TeamBRAZO

Good to read - same problem here

This is a good thread for me to read.  I also bought 3 Gorton #2's and guess what - 2 of them leak.  But I don't believe that they are defective (I wish they were), but I'm guessing it is still something with my system. 

I know I have the following problems:

- my near boiler piping is wrong and I'll fix at the end of the season

- I have wet steam caused by my boiler piping

- my system cycles on the LWCO because of the wet steam

- my system never goes above .6

I was very concerned that I just wasted $160 on the Gorton's #2, but I have a good feeling it is still my system. 

What would I have to do without more things to check on my steam system - it becomes obsessive.

steam-rookie

At least you know

team brazo: At least you know whats wrong with yours. I, on the other hand, have no clue.  My system is so simple looking. Its just one pipe. No header, no equalizer, no loops, no twirls, no drop stuff, no nothing, just one long 2 inch pipe.

gerry gill

I don't like to tell people to play with

the gas valve..you would need a pro to do that..i'm not sure if your a contractor or homeowner..but either way you should get someone in to adjust the gas or oil if thats the case cause if the boiler is working right it really shouldn't have to cycle on the pressure switch.until all vents on rads and mains are closed, then really it should downfire instead of continuing to the pressuretrol setting..most residential boilers don't come equipped with multiple firing rate capability..it has to be added..ironically most commercial boilers are equipped that way..

jpf321

SR ...

i mentioned a few days ago that I'd be happy to meet up with you and perhaps we can both comb over your system, 2-heads are sometimes better than 1. i'm happy to come over and have a look sometime. tomorrow might work well in the mid-afternoon .. i know you are somewhere within 15mins of Hicksville. Next week is kinda tight, but I'm usually free after 9pm each night. Contact me directly using the button on the left under my name and we can make a plan.



I'll even bring my 2 gorton 2s which seem to work for me. Of my whole antler if you have a 1/2" pipe union installed.

steam-rookie

Thanks Mr. Gill

I think you are correct. It must be the oil gun. I have never had anyone actually adjust the thing, ever. All I ever get is a yearly basic tune up. Change filter, change nozzle. They throw on any old nozzle that they have in the tool box, then they look at the flame and say its good. No one has ever had a clue about a steam system and how its supposed to operate. All they are ever concerned with is that it goes on. after that they are gone. Lets face it, a lot happens with a steam system after it "goes on". Thanks Gerry for your interest in helping me. Keep the suggestions coming



One thing I just still don't understand. How can the thing run on one very long clcle, say 40 min., and never close the vents on the rads? Wouldn`t that mean that the rads are not really heating up? Wouldn't that mean that the house is not heating up also? I just don't get it. Everyone seams to be striving for the steam nirvana. (a boiler that runs till the thermostat is satisfied, and it never cuts out on pressure) Maybe that's not a good thing for me because of the convectors. that's what I have, all convectors, no rads.

Does the same principle of steam nirvana apply to me?

gerry gill

SR- are you saying you run your system for 40

minutes and the vents never close or are you being hypothetical? If your boiler was sized to the sq. ft edr  for convectors your boiler is 30% to big..you won't find that in any current literature but if you dig deep enough into history its there...steam nirvava awaits but you may need a modulating burner to do it..i don't work on oil as all thats in my stomping grounds is gas..so i can only help so much..evryone wants to controll pressure with ''devices'' monitoring pressure..they are on the wrong end of the boiler..if you want to control pressure you must gain control of the fire..

steam-rookie

gerry

Yes, i am being hypothetical.  My system will run the first time maybe 30 min. After that its on and off every 3 min. for about 6 times until the thermostat is happy.

Brian_74

I appreciate the reports

I'm grateful for everyone who reported their experiences with Gorton. Although I haven't posted until now, I have been reading this thread several times a day since I started it. Off to order some G2s!

Brian_74

My own update

Since I started this thread, I thought I should up date it with my experience. I ordered two Gorton #2s from PexSupply. One was DOA; the other passed the blow test but died several days later. I've ordered Hoffman's from PexSupply and am awaiting their arrival. So far, customer service from PexSupply has been very good.



If you decide to go with the Gortons anyway, I would recommend using a reducing bushing rather than getting the 1/2'' fitting. If the Gortons don't work, you can just remove them and the bushings and install Hoffmans. I thought I was being clever and used a 3/4x3/4x1/2 tee, which I now need to replace when I install the Hoffman.



Let me add that these three Gortons are my entire experience with the company. I do not have the depth of experience that the pros here have. And as we've seen with Toyota, even the best companies can have quality control issues.

steam-rookie

The jury is still out

Hello everyone, its been a while since I have posted. This is due to my day job.

Lots of work all of a sudden. Work, work, work. 

Anyway, I did get a chance to do some more plumbing work on my system. I changed some of the old 1/2" copper to 3/4.  Actually, I had no choice because when I was reconfiguring my antler I kind of stressed out that old 1/2" copper cold feed. The old sweat joints were starting to leak. I feared an eventual blow out so I just drained down the whole house and changed it all out. To make a long story longer, the heat was off in the house for 10 hours. I had no water to wash my hands, and I had no idea it would take so long. Luckily when I turned everything back on at 10 o'clock at night everything that I had soldered worked. The re-pipe to 3/4" fixed all the leaking joints but did not help at all as far as volume is concerned. That's something I will be asking everyone at a later time.

Back to the Gortons.  For some reason my G2`s have really quieted down since that plumbing job I did. I don't know why. Maybe it has something to do with the boiler being off all day. I have a felling that the water is very dirty in the bottom of my boiler.  I still have not had the time to clean the water yet, but I am hoping that once I do get to clean it the gortons will finally shut up. I know its a long shot, but its the one thing that I have yet to try. I have to pick a day when the wife is not home because I am still hearing about the last time with the heat and the water being off until 10 PM. I am also waiting for my hands to heal.  Next time I think I will try gloves.



Once I get the water changed out in the boiler I will decide what to do with the G2`s. 

Brian:   sorry to hear about your troubles.  I think Pex will do the right thing. Its still a PITA to have to change them out.

I got to get some sleep, I have a 4 AM start tomorrow.