90% or mnore recommended boiler that you like to install & service

robert borders

I have installed ultra 105 by Weil McClain, but would like to get away from "pumping the boiler" as well as a pump for the system. have you and do you like to install the prestige boiler by triangle tube? i have a customer who wants a hi efficiency boiler with DHW capibilities

bob Borders

Bob's heating

rlborders@iowatelecpm.net

319-795-0822

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Prestige

Love the Prestige, but you still have to make sure the flow through the heat exchanger is adequate to pick up all that heat.  But often times, you have a one zone house or multiple large zones, the smallest of which would be capable of picking up the heat on low fire.  At times like these, you may not need primary-secondary (pumping the boiler) piping.

tim smith

Great boiler, 3 or 4 yrs now installing. No real problems.

Great little boiler.

Mark Eatherton

Have a good Knight Gertrude...

VERY good appliance for the money. Very flexible controls.



Just installed a 399, will fire it this week and post photos shortly thereafter.



ME

robert borders

just did a presstige solo 175 on a 2 zone

cast iron with no pumping the boiler. works well with a 2699 pump. looking forward to my next one. quoting one this coming week, same size.

the factory told me that since it had 2 inch pipe and only 2 zones to pipe it primary away only.



RB

TonyS

I have about 20 in the field

Love em! the oldest ones are 5 years now and have not had a single problem. I would say half of them are installed "pumped through" on large cast iron radiator systems. I have been very pleased so far.

Unknown

Going primary

I share your frustration, as 2 pumps double the parasitic loss and your chances of a system going down with pump failure.

So I do the math as others have suggested.

I have installed several Ultras with one pump. They do not have particularly high head, (in fact I think they suffer from too much flow if over-pumped).

Triangle is a great boiler with very little head by comparison. They do require a 3" minimum vent however (unnecessary) even on the 60mbut!. Too much work for this old guy.

Ultra, Knight, Contender, Alpine, NTI, Vitodens and even the GB142 (for which a single pump is verboten!) have gone in with one pump. Many to choose from and all at 95% AFUE.

All but Buderus either expressly allow or will right a note for you teacher/code official so join the one pump crowd. Greener than the rest.

Steve Whitbeck

Pumps

Weither you have one pump or two.

If one pump dies you lose heat.

Your chances of heat loss stay the same.

CMadatMe

Why the Dislike

For prim/sec and 2 pumps? I gather most of you are zoning with zone valves. I would think you would use it to your advantages. I prefer low loss headers over prim/sec I don't like the temp drop across zones when multiple zones call. I see the system pump as an opportunity to sell a Grundfos Alpha. Customer is looking for a high efficiency system aren' they?  Putting a few extra bucks in the pocket in always a nice thing.

Unknown

Plumber's math

If you add a pump you double the operating cost of the first AND the statistical chances that you will be without heat due to a pump failure.

But of course, this is why the manufacturers recommend primary/secondary near piping. The math is too much for many.

CMadatMe

Hydronics Math

I don't believe I am doubling the operating cost by utilizing pri/sec or LLH with a Alpha type pump. If anything I'm shrinking it. By using the energy produced and using it to it's fullest extent would shrink overall operating cost. Gaining more control over delta-t (btu's transferred) in the long run not only provides the customer better comfort but allows you to use the dollars spent on producing those btus more efficiently.



The math is very easy nothing more than 8th grade algebra. Is it not the consumers decision whether or not they want a certain type of system? In the current economic climate consumers want to be educated so they make the best investment possible. In the installers point of view it may be a great idea to only use one pump due to time, labor savings and a statistical chance that a system pump fails, but what benefit is the customer giving up to make our job easier? Who decided we were making decisions for customers. Our job is to educate the consumers and help them make the best decision not just turning a wrench.

Mark Eatherton

Only one pump...

for us "professor types" that teach those "code types", can you show me in the installation manual exactly where it is that Lochinvar/Munchkin and any other Giononni based platform will allow you to install a single pump for doing space heating?



I'm all for doing it the most efficient way, but they want two pumps for a reason...



A pdf with a page reference will do just fine, thank you.



ME

Unknown

Double the pumps, double the draw

If you install two pumps, you burn twice the electricity. (1st grade math). Without getting in in ECM pumps (advanced math by any standard) and staying on point, primary/secondary pumping is simply a waste of money long and short term in many ModCon boiler systems.

My customers pay me to design comfortable, functional, energy efficient hydronic heating systems. Many are professionals but lack the time to research or the experience to judge system components.

If they only need one pump...no choices no worries.

CMadatMe

Lack of Time

Are you telling me a heating contractor has less time than a doctor or any other profession that requires continual education? I don't buy that. There are alot of guys that strive to educate themselves. Look at the quality of contractors here at "The Wall" alone.



I do wish the boiler manufactures did a better job of promoting alternative ways to pipe mod/cons such as hydro separators and even buffer tanks but they don't. That's were the education comes in.