"Y" Strainers for Main Vents & Insulation Questions

Jeremy_16

I posted here a few weeks ago about a few problems I was having heating the fourth floor of the front of a building. I received several suggestions about increasing the venting and insulating any exposed mains (most mains are in the walls of apartments that are occupied by tenants, but some mains near the boiler can be insulated). We just switched heating companies and the new company came out to take a look at the problem. They said that the boiler was underfired and not set up correctly. After their changes (bigger nozzle size, etc), the system seems more balanced, but I think it could still be improved.



<strong>1.</strong> I still think it would be a good idea to increase venting and add insulation to balance the system and save money on oil. Is 1 inch thick fiberglass insulation the way to go?



<strong>2. </strong>When I asked my plumber about increasing the venting, he said that I may get a lot of rust and sediment rushing into the new main vents and that they may get damaged quickly. I then stumbled across Dan's "Balancing One-Pipe Steam Systems" article:



<a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/138/Balancing-One-Pipe-Steam-Systems">http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/11/Hot-Tech-Tips/138/Balancing-One-Pipe-Steam-Systems</a>



He mentions putting a "Y" strainer vertically before the main vent to protect them from debris. Has anyone done this before? Do they work as well vertically as horizontally? When I mentioned this to my plumber he said he had never installed any vertically only horizontally. Space is limited because my mains vents are inside walls that are in tenants' apartments. I don't really have the leisure of going in and out whenever I want to experiment and test ideas out. How often would the screen need to be cleaned or replaced on the "Y" strainer? Would it be bad if I did not install a "Y" strainer before the vent?



<strong>3.</strong> Dan mentions master venting (putting main vents on top of risers and moving the radiators over to accommodate them) in "The Lost Art of Steam Heating." We had this done on two risers in our 4 story building. I was wondering if anyone had simply drilled and tapped a hole for something like a Gorton D vent in any of their risers? ( for example: you could do this at the top of the third floor instead of putting in a main vent next to the radiator on the fourth floor).  Would this work as well or not be as effective as the master venting approach described in Dan's book?



Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.



-Jeremy

Jamie Hall

Definetly

a still a good idea to insulate everything you can reach.  You don't have to go crazy on this, but whatever you can.  1" fibreglass is probably the best; there are nice pre-formed pipe insulations that thickness which work very nicely.



And more venting won't hurt you.  Y strainers are a good idea in many systems, and they will work fine mounted vertically.  Just make sure the flow direction is correct.  However, they do need to be cleaned from time to time, and that could be a problem in your situation.  They shouldn't have to be cleaned that often, though -- but I can't give you an interval, since it varies so widely.  Nor can I state positively that you need them, or you don't need them.  The building I superintend does not have any strainers on anything, and has never given any trouble.  However... one building does not make a rule!



Never tried your idea in number 3, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.  Perhaps not as well as the usual approach, but it couldn't hurt...

nicholas bonham-carter

4-storey steam

i don't think the addition of venting will disloge a lot of debris. more vents, with lower pressure can only reduce the velocity of the air leaving each vent, and therefore is less likely to pick up debris, and clog the vent. the ideal is to get the air out of, and get steam into the main pipes, as quickly as possible, at the lowest possible pressure!  maybe if the installation included some thought, and unions to make it easier to get the main vents out of a limited access area, it will make it easier to clean/replace them. my 55 rad, 3 storey system has closed the vents now before the needle hits 3 oz! [however i did buy 3 gorton # 2 for each of 6 dry return$!] all my vents are next to the boiler on dry returns. if you have a counterflow system, you will not have dry returns, so is that your situation?

if so then you would need larger vents than the "d" on the top of the risers, on the ends of the main.

i wondered about strainers, but didn't ever need them, and i put large capacity gorton d radiator vents on the  [5] 3rd floor rads to speed up the risers.

definitely insulate those pipes, with fiberglass, any way you can [if you can see the steam pipe, it should be insulated].--nbc

Jeremy_16

My Set-Up

We have wet returns at the end of each main, and no dry returns. The mains are dripped right after the main vents. I have enough room to put about 3 or 4 different vents on each main on an antler or menorah. I should have enough vertical space, but horizontal space is where I'm limited. How long can the horizontal portion of a menorah or antler be extended and still work well? (maybe I could extend into another area if needed).



My plan is to put in ball valves underneath each vent to make switching them out easy and put a union underneath the whole menorah or antler so it can be taken out later. It seems that y strainers may be more trouble than they are worth in my set-up.



As for venting the building vertically, near the top of the risers, tapping a space for a gorton D vent ( at the top of the third floor/ base of fourth floor) would or wouldn't work well with my system? One of you said maybe, and the other said no. I know the master venting approach on page 118-119 in the lost art of steam heating is ideal, but it would be more difficult/expensive to do on all risers because you have to move the radiators. Any other ideas about this?



Thanks.

Unknown

Thoughts

H i Jeremy - Thoughts on Questions

1. Insulation is always beneficial. The thicker, the better, however, 1 inch gives you "the best bang for the buck" but do not go less than 1 inch.



3.Venting  capacities: A  Gorton  "D" is equal to a Gorton #1.  A Hoffman 75 is equal to almost 2 Gorton #1s, An open 1/8 inch pipe is equal to about 3 Gorton #1s



What I'm thinking is that to test out the master venting idea you could put a tee or multiple tees on a 4 th floor's radiator vent hole and add several vents . This would give you an idea of how well the master venting might work.



  If you decide to place a vent on the 3rd floor . I'd use a 1/2 pipe and Gorton #1 or the Hoffman 75 as I think you'd get better drainage away from the valve with 1./2 inch pipe and it has the option if you want to go to larger vent (Hoffman 75)  it would be easier to switch out.

- Rod

DavidK_2

But,

the air speed out the vent is not what determines how much crud may be picked up.



A bigger vent will vent more air (it might be leaving the vent more slowly, because of the bigger hole, but it is venting more air.) A bigger vent means faster steam velocity in the mains. A faster speed in the main means more stuff might get picked up and moved toward the vent. Plus there is always the possibility that just working on the pipes can break more crud loose.



Maybe this is why people are having problems with newly installed Gorton #2 vents.

Maybe ???



I think a strainer is a good idea. Likely it will not have to be cleaned often. Perhaps once soon after the new vent install, to catch anything that might be knocked loose, then less frequently afterward. I don't know the relative cost of vents v.s. strainer, but in the end it might be worth it to have to clean something that is designed to be cleaned.



But I'm not a pro, and have no first hand experience, so could be wrong . . .