nipple problem

steam-rookie

OK I got all the fittings to construct my menorah for the new main vents.

I have to remove the 4 inch nipple that has been on there for 65 years

I plan to replace the nipple with a new one. the new one will have a tee on top rather than the coupling that is there now.

I think it would be easier to remove the nipple rather than the coupling because of the amount of rust on that coupling.

So far I have tried liquid wrench, heat, wax on the threads, more heat, and a 18 inch pipe wrench.

What the next step? Do you think I should try a bigger wrench? 36 inch maybe?

MIke_Jonas

Hard to say

I keep 12" through 48" pipe wrenches on my truck.



If one doesn't break it loose, I go to the next size bigger.



Sometimes it won't come loose just by pulling on it, you have to give it a whack and try to "break" it loose.



I know I have a tough one when I'm using my 36" to pound on the 48".

TonyS

Heat the fitting

where the nipple enters. Heat it up hot but not red hot. When its hot, take a cold wet rag and wrap it around the nipple. This will shrink the nipple inside the hot fitting. Then quickly have your wrenches ready and and pull.

Unknown

Use a Pipe Union

Be sure to use a union to attach your menorah to the nipple coming off the elbow, This allows you to make it up on a bench and attach it with just one fitting. Saves banging you knuckles on the joists.

- Rod

steam-rookie

nipple problem

OK  I got my hands on a 24 inch pipe wrench and the old nipple is off.

I constructed the menorah out of 3/4 galvanised fittings

I added 4 new vents

I wanted to order the gorton #1 vents but held off for now because they will cost about 80 bucks at pex supply.

I was able to get four vents from home depot that are returnable (I think)

I wanted to try them out just to see if there was any improvement at all

Turns out all they had was DURST CORPORATION 3/4X1/2 STRAIGHT STEAM RADIATOR VENT AIR VALVE # A883

I cant find any info on these vents at all. I`m not ever sure if they are "main vents".

Quote from Rod,  "Be sure to use a union to attach your menorah to the nipple" That is a great idea but I don't think I have the height clearance for that.Thats the big problem by the way. I don't have the height clearance to add the gorton #2`s like I should. I am also worried about ordering 6 gorton#1`s to make up for that. apiece or 6@19 bucks apiece, and I`m not even sure 6 is enough. Besides that a pretty big menorah at the 6 vent point.

steam-rookie

Another Idea

I have another idea. I don't want to cut into that ceiling. It is probably loaded with asbestos.

CAN I put an elbow on that nipple, run a length of pipe 2 feet to the right, and then add the two gorton #2`s??

If I can go two feet to the right I will be past the cement/asbestos ceiling and that would solve the whole height issue.

With the proper pitch on that vent pipe extension, is it doable? Or would it be a really bad idea?

jim_72

vents

Here's what you do. Go to your supply house and buy two vertical Hoffman  vari-vents. Put them on your nipple in the full open position. Two of those Hoffmans  will vent slightly more air ,approx 1.3 Cfm, then one Gordon #2. If you are lucky and have dry steam you can leave them on. All vents hate wet steam but the Hoffmans love spitting water . I know they are used for radiators and not mains but I had a simular height  restriction and used two Hoffmans , with my dry steam they empty my 2" x  25 ft long main in  2 minutes. Life is good Good Luck Jim

steam-rookie

My Idea

What about my idea of the extension? No good?

jpf321

extension should be fine

assuming you mind the pitch. and the torque forces on the nipple.

there's no reason why you shouldnt be able to use a union and close nipples or such.

jim_72

vent

I think your over thinking the need for the 6"  vertical nipple. In many cases, like the photo I posted in your previous post , when you have height restrictions you can try to get away with less height using a short nipple( making do). It's just a few fitting and with the proper sized vent (#2) and dry steam you will  most likely have good venting.Try it and see what happens . 

Unknown

Main Vents

Hi-  You might want to take a look at Gerry Gill's Website. He has some great pictures and info on venting. http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=415



Here's some vent info for you.

A 1/2 pipe capacity will support 2 each Gorton #2s

A 3/4 inch pipe capacity will support 4 Gorton #2s

1 each Gorton #2 is equal to 3 each Gorton #1s  ( on the Gorton box it says it equals 4 Gorton #1s but I go by Gerry and Steve's chart.which if you aren't familiar with it can be got in the Shop section of this site.)  Next to "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" this is the book I probably reference the most. You download it as an ebook. Here a link to it:

 http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/146/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-by-Gerry-Gill-and-Steve-Pajek



You idea of running menorahs parallel /remoted is fine. Allow a bit of pitch to the pipe so that any water will drain back to the main. You might also want to take a look at Steamhead's signature picture. If you feel you need more venting than the present pipe can carry you can just tap another vent pipe into the main.

Main Vents- I'd stick to Gortons as they have the largest capacity of the main vents. The only other possibility is the Hoffman 75 which I belive has about have the capacity of a Gorton #2.  Vari Vents are made by Heat Timer and don't close when water reaches them, Gorton and Hoffman do.

- Rod

steam-rookie

Shorter nipple

I am willing to try  the shorter nipple. The current nipple is 41/2 inches.

I think I can get the gorton #2`s in there with a 21/2 nipple.

With the 100 feet of 2 inch steel main, will two gorton #2`s be enough

I hope they don't get flooded, I have no idea if I have dry steam.

steam-rookie

New pictures

Here are some new pictures. Pic #1, My new vents

                                          Pic #2, My settings?

jpf321

well done!

i'm just wondering if galvanized was the right way to go .. i have previously asked about recommended material for a return and galvanized was not on top...

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/128813/best-material-for-wet-return



luckily, if you decide to use a different material, it's not a huge job to rebuild your menorah ..



no pipe union? hmm...

steam-rookie

Progress Report

Nope, no union. I had no trouble at all constructing the menorah with the new nipple installed.

What would be better, copper, black pipe?

I boiled the old dole in the bedroom and now it as quiet as death.

I also did a little timing research. The results are interesting. In my rookie opinion, it sounds like I will be needing more main venting. Here are the results of my test:

Cold pipe start

After the boiler had run for 16 minutes the steam had reached the halfway point of the main. At that point I started to follow it around the main:

Bathroom Rad Tee 19 min.

Living room Rad Tee 20 min

Kitchen Rad Tee  22 min.

End of Main  24 min.

Boiler turned off after 37 min.  It then went on and off, and on and off,  every 3 minutes until the thermostat was satisfied. (about 10 times on and off)

So, by my calculations it took 8 minutes for the steam to travel from the halfway point on the main to the end of the main. This would indicate insufficient main venting. That ain't no 25 miles per hour.

What do you think of all this?

jim_72

vent

If my math is correct your 100' main has approx 2.1 cubic feet of air. Two Gordon #2 vents have a vent rate of 2.2 cfm . Since you have created a 4 vent arrangement let us know how long it takes  for steam to reach those vents. When your boiler begins a heat cycle palm your header and when it gets too hot to touch start  timing and stop when steam reaches the end of your main. 

steam-rookie

Palm Test

The palm test is a great idea. I waited until the header was too hot to palm.

It took 12 min. 40 sec. for the steam to reach the new vents at the end of the main.

That does not sound good.

jim_72

Too Slow

Although all steam systems have there own "personality" I would think that is slow.The root cause I think is that the total venting rate of the 4 vents you installed is badly lacking. Here's a test that will be of interest. Remove the 4 vents and antler and attach a elbow  and a nipple followed by a 1/2" ball valve. Open the ball valve completely and start the same timing test. Now be very careful to shut the valve as soon a steam arrives for obvious reasons.That will give you the fastest possible venting time.After that I would install a minimum of two Gordon #2 on a shorter nipple /antler arrangement based on the size of your main. You can start with one #2 but you will best be served by having Two. Time varies from system to system but you want to at least  start with matching the total amount of air in your main- 2.1CF with the  total venting capacity per minute of the vents in yours case two Gordon #2 = 2.2 CFM 

steam-rookie

Valve test

I will try that valve test. Thanks for the great info. I will post the results as soon as I can get the test done.

jim_72

vent

Remember to use a ball valve only !

steam-rookie

New Test

I will remember to use a ball valve.

I also have another question about something else I plan to do

I have the original pressure gauge on the top of the boiler. It has not worked in 15 years. I would like to replace it with the low pressure gauge that is often mentioned on this board. IS THIS IT ??    [url=http://gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020]http://gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020

Also, Do recommend that I install the new gauge with a pigtail?

I have attached a picture of the old gauge that comes out of the top of the boiler

jpf321

yep pigtail needed

yep pigtail needed .. you may want to look at the 0-20oz gauge they have .. that's the one i have now .. same price .. it also has a secondary scale of inches of water .... [url=http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33015]http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33015



have a look at my pics of how i set up my pressure controls .. PLEASE NOTE FOR SAFETY REASONS .. i should have a separate pigtail for each pressure control device .. the pictures do not reflect this .. but you do need a pigtail for your pressure gauge to protect it from LIVE STEAM .. the gauge you have now probably has "internal siphon" written on it somewhere.



with regards to your previous ?? .. i'm sure gal will work right now .. i've been told that brass is even more preferred .. and most folks use black .. the union would be helpful for future service and adding/changing vents.. and for your valve test .. etc etc. unions are meant to remain easily serviceable even after decades of rusted together threads in non-union situations.



jpf

steam-rookie

pigtail

I will install new gauge with a pigtail. How does that protect it from live steam?

Do I have to put water in the pigtail?

Also, What does the valve that you sugested mean by "inches of water"?

Unknown

Gauge & Pigtails

The pigtail fills with water and this protects it from the live steam.  You don't have to fill the pigtail as it will accumulate enough water very quickly.  Make sure your pigtail is configured so that condensate (water) will drain away from the gauges/controls.

Pigtails can be had made from steel and "bronze" (red brass).   Use a 1/4 " bronze pigtail and brass/bronze fittings (nipples ,tees, elbows) as these are less likely to corrode. If you don't have a local source try Mc Master Carr  http://www.mcmaster.com/#pressure-gauge-pigtails/=5eyfvl



Pressure Gauges: I'd get the 0-3 PSI gauge # 33020 .

http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020

 I think this would be a better gauge for you since you don't have a working 0-30 PSI gauge. You probably  should have a working  0-30 PSI gauge as well as most  code/insurance regs. require it  though from a practical standpoint it is virtually useless.

- Rod     

steam-rookie

Palm test

I tried the palm test today with the 1/2 inch ball valve instaled. It took 8 min. for the steam to arrive at the ball valve. That still seems kinda long. Its better that 12min 40secs.,  but still seems kinda long. I`m going to time it again as soon as the heat goes on. I will post the results soon.

I also installed the new low pressure gauge/w pigtail today.

Call for heat--8 min. for steam to arrive at ball valve--closed the valve--pressure started to rise---went to 3 pounds and buried the needle--boiler cut off about 1 min. after that.

I adjusted the pressuretroll much lower than where it has been for 17 years

call for heat---- pressure started to rise---gauge went to 1.8 psi---boiler cut out----pressure dropped slowly to .05 psi----boiler cut in----back to 1.8psi---cut out---back down to .05--cut in----1.8 cut out, and so on, until thermostat was happy.

I think this is a good thing.  Thank you to everyone one this site for the help

This is the first time this boiler has worked under the correct pressure in 17 years.