Radiator not getting any heat...

John_141

ok, its an old house, using a single pipe steam system, 2 main lines, one for the front of the house and one for the back. both mains have the same size vents, radiators are on the main floor and the 2nd floor. along the back of the house there are 8 radiators, 6 are on the main floor and 2 are on the top. on the 2nd floor, one radiator gets nearly nothing, while the other gets blasting hot. on the main floor, there is also one radiator, that lies in between 3 others, that also gets almost no heat. my main concern is the 2nd floor as that is my oldest son's bedroom and its very cold. in the basement i have the riser for his radiator insulated with rigid fiberglass pipe insulation, that is the only riser that i felt needed it because it happens to have the longest run from the main to the radiator. both the radiators on the 2nd floor have heat-timer adjustable vents. where can i start looking?

the water in the system is clean, i drain and refill it once a month, the vents on the radiator are free and clear of any rust or buildup. the vent on both 2nd floor radiators were wide open...i since closed the one with more heat to about .25-.50, and on the main floor i closed one radiator (the main valve not the vent) off the rear main completely as its not needed in that room...

the heat just now clicked on, so i will see if that made a difference, somehow i doubt it.

one other thing, when i checked the pipes after the previous heat cycle, the riser tube for the troubled radiator was hot but only up till a point where it meets the floor and goes up...

jpf321

radiator no heat troubleshooting...

Working from vent on back...generally

1) can you BLOW, with your mouth, air through the vent when you remove it from the rad? if adjustable, does the adjuster work?

2) is your rad "slightly" PITCHED toward inlet?

3) is your floor VALVE FULLY OPEN and not obstructed? did you visually inspect by removing radiator?

3.5) Is the pipe between the floor valve and the floor "STEAM HOT"? Is

anything "STEAM HOT" within a 1ft radius of the radiator?

4) is it connected to a horizontal pipe which my be improperly PITCHED and/or holding a pool of water?

5) are your rads/mains all BALANCEDas a "system whole"?

6) are your MAINS properly INSULATED?

7) are your MAINS properly VENTED

7) are your MAINS properly PITCHED?

8) are your RETURNS BACKING UP and sending a stack of water into the steam mains?

9) are you producing "DRY STEAM"?

10) is you PRESSURE SUFFICIENTLY LOW enough to make steam move fast, but high enough to overcome 1oz of loss every 100ft of pipes



you've explained everything I think up to #4 ..



let us know.

John_141

no heat...

wow....i can answer some of this





Working from vent on back...generally

1) can you blow, with your mouth, air through the vent when you remove it from the rad? if adjustable, does the adjuster work?

YES to both.

2) is your rad "slightly" pitched toward inlet?

Yes

3) is your floor valve fully open and not obstructed? did you visually inspect by removing radiator?

It is fully open, and no i did not remove it to check it, i dont have the tools to loosen the fittings that size nor can i move the radiator without help, these old things are HEAVY

4) is it connected to a horizontal pipe which my be improperly pitched and/or holding a pool of water

No

5) are your rads/mains all balanced as a "system whole" to begin with? then you can tweak each one from there?

unfortunately no, the last time i got a quote from a plummer to do this i thought it was an astronomical figure, i have tried to do it myself...

6) are your mains properly insulated?

no, the mains are not insulated, i was going to do it last year but i did not get to it...after reading a few posts on here, i see that HD insulation isnt worth it so i need to do some measuring and find a source to get it from..

7) are your mains properly pitched?

i believe so, but i cannot say for sure as i don't know how to check or what they should be

8) are your returns backing up and sending a stack of water into the steam mains?

i dont think so, im assuming this would cause an enormous racket of banging, if not what would it look or sound like...

9) are you producing "dry steam"?

not sure

10) is you pressure sufficiently low enough to make steam move fast, but high enough to overcome 0.5lbs loss every 100ft of pipes

over my head buddy...i cant answer that one!



you did give me some things to check though.



you've explained everything I think up to #4 ..



let us know.

jpf321

regarding #5

if you are willing to invest under $50 for the resources, and then perhaps a few more dollars for some parts .. get 2 books available on this site... and then use my venting recommendation worksheet to assist with the pencil work. have a look at my post here for the books: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129085/Uneven-Heating ..



while you are here shopping .. I'd recommend getting the book below .. to help you understand the pressure problem .. for the moment .. it is sufficient for you to tell us where you pressuretrol is currently set .. and for us to tell you that is should be at 0.5psi cut-in with a differential of 1psi (sometimes on a white plastic dial inside).







get those mains insulated...if you have been reading posts from the last few days you will see a few online recommendations ... search these posts for mcmaster.com or just click: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129060/2-radiators-fighting-for-steam



good luck .. and do let us know if your changes tonight helped at all.

John_141

still 'nuthin

i just checked the rad again, after a heat cycle...its cold, its getting nothing... there must be blockage somewhere right?here is the layout of the rads form the boiler around the rear of the house, and the results of each rad:1 - den, above the boiler room, HOT2 - Living room, i turned it off3 - 2nd flr Bedroom 1, HOT4 - main floor powder room, cold5 - kitchen 1 - warmer6 - kitchen 2 - warm7 - 2nd Flr Bedroom 2, cold8 - kitchen 3, warmest (of the 3 in the kitchen)9 - dining room 1, warm enough10 - 2nd floor bathroom, warm enough11 - dining room 2, turned offi suppose a floorplan would help, i'll see if i can sketch something...another thing...at the end of the main is the down tube that takes the condensation back to the boiler, the pipe goes from the main down to floor level, then makes a 90 degree and heads along the wall thru the laundry room and the play room into the boiler room...where it makes the 1st 90, there is a valve, i opened that valve and i was able to drain the boiler of all water from there, it flowed like a garden hose at full tilt...is this normal? i was expecting some water, but not like that...something is not right, but nothing has been touched or changed form last year...i dont get it...

jpf321

#3.5

How about we add:

#3.5) Is the pipe between the floor valve and the floor "steam hot"? Is anything "steam hot" within a 1ft radius of the radiator?



fyi, although I'm sure that it has occured throughout the history of steam at one point or another, as far as I understand, there are very very very few actual clogs in steam pipes which are normally empty and not holding water. and whatever you do, don't try pouring drain-opener or some sort in a steam pipe!! let us know about #3.5



regarding your high pressure return flush .. if you have an auto-feed, and did not isolate the boiler from the drain valve you opened by way of another valve, then it is possible that when you opened the drain valve and auto-feed kicked in, you had domestic water pressure on the line.



if you do not have auto-feed and you found significant pressure in your return drain, it may be because you have high water stacked somewhere, but even water stacked 6ft will only be at 2psi (28in = 1psi) .. it sounds like you got hit with domestic pressure which is usually greater than 50psi.



posting pictures of your boiler and the surrounding piping and describing exactly which valve you opened and got "hosed" with, would be very helpful.



regarding your boiler draining in general .. it is not recommended to frequently add new water to a steam boiler, which means that it's not recommended to drain and fill a steam boiler .. the reason for this is that new water contains dissolved oxygen which corrodes (rusts) your boiler .. when you do add significant amounts of "feed water" .. be sure to bring it to steam for about 10mins thereafter .. also .. never add cold water to a hot boiler ..



it is recommended that you "blowdown" your low water cut-off (if you have a float type) once weekly .. search the wall for keyword blowdown or LWCO ... as well, it is recommended that you run some water out of your "mud leg" (often the lowest drain directly tapped into the boiler) every once and a while .. but you never need to remove more than a few quarts each week with these two procedures.

John_141

heat issues continue

from the main pipe, the riser is hot for about 4 feet, then it cools down to warm, when it makes its turn to head upstairs it is less than warm. riser pipes right next to it, before it and after it, are all hot.now that everyone is up im going to check the radiator again for pitch, maybe its something simple and the radiator has water in it...i hope.as for the feed, its not an auto feed, its manual and it is fed form the hot water heater, so its never cold water. the valve i opened is like a drain valve on the return line to the boiler, it only drained out the boiler it wasnt water form the main line, once the boiler drained the pressure dropped and the water stopped. i guess i just did not think that there would be that much water that far form the boiler, its about 50 feet of pipe from the boiler to where that drain valve is...i cant do pics now, at the end of the long main, the pipe steps down from 4 or 6 inches to a 2 inch, it goes down from the main to floor level and then runs along the walls into the boiler...this si the condensation return line right?pressure on the boiler read 3 last night during a heat cycle



update:

the rad was NOT pitched, its about 36" so i was able to get 1/2-3/4" pieces of pine under the feet. i pulled the vent off and i did feel air coming out, it wasnt blowing hard, but it was coming out. i then went down to the basement and felt the pipe and it was hotter than last night, the whole length of the pipe up to where it goes intot the wall and up, so maybe that was it. i think i need to do some balancing, im about to order a lot of new gorton valves and insulation...i found a spot online that has gorttons for about 15.00 each, is that a good price?

Mark N

Cold Rads

John

Remove the vents from the rads that won't heat and run your boiler see if the rad then gets steam.  If it doesn't get a pipe wrench and open the union, separate the rad from valve.  Have a towel ready  you will probably get water and crud out of the rad.  With the rad disconnected see if you get steam to the valve.  Be careful not to get burned by the steam.  Close the valve when the steam arrives.  If it doesn't you probably have water in one of the horizontal pipes to the rad.  Most likely need a pro if this is the case.

Mark

John_141

some success...

seems like pitching the rad helped a bunch, the rad finally got heat on the last cycle. its nowhere near as hot as the rad in the other Bedroom, but its a lot farther form the boiler so its understandable...i suppose thats a balancing thing, kind of hard to do with rads on 2 floors off the same main...

would you guys say that fixed vent valves like gortons are better than the variable/adjustable ones by say, heat-timer?

I found insulation online for a little under $6 per 3foot piece of 1", but i need about 20-25pcs, and shipping was $50...need to find it locally, theres a plumbing suppl not far from here, i'll try them this week.

thanks for your help guys...this project is far form over, but at least my little guy's room will have some heat tonight...

jpf321

glad you are making

some progress .. do not overpitch the rad .. search the wall for "quarter" or read Rod's "Raditator Slope" post here: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129125/Butterfly-or-Kink



yes pexsupply is the only place online to get gortons .. you may want to check locally first since last week pex was backordered on Cs and 6s .. many people prefer gortons or hoffman 1As .. my sheet is good for either on the rads .. gortons only on the mains.



do not order anything until you have a handle on exactly what you need .. and you won't have a good handle until you have measured the EDR of each rad .. and the length and diameter or every main and riser ..



the balancing work of course takes into account which floor the rad is located on by looking at length of riser from main to rad... 1st floors are normally under 2-3ft .. 2nd flrs are often around 10ft.



have a look at the pipe size chart below: it will show you how many gallons per foot are in a particular sized pipe.

John_141

thanks

thanks for all your help...some of this is a little over my head...i'm trying to do this myself, but i'm close to breaking down and getting a pro...i have a friend in the contracting biz, i asked him to recommend a steam heat pro...

i will though go and get new vents for the mains, i think i have them wrong, i have 3/4" vents on both the short and long main.

jpf321

where in the world?

where r u located? perhaps there is a pro near you listed in the Find a Pro section of this site. or maybe one of the regular pros here is close to you.



buying the books and working through the balancing exercise will save you money in the long run and make you smarter. you can't simply guess at main/rad venting ..



it's all very straightforward but requires a little bit of number crunching...we are happy to help you with the crunching, but we aren't in your house to measure the necessary things.