opening traps

Brian_74

I need to replace the traps in my vapor system. Most of them look like the one below, except usually they're 3'' from the wall (ugh). I know that I have to replace them all at once (and while the boiler is off). I thought it would be a good idea to take my time opening each trap before the actual replacement day. I figure that it will take me a while to get 80 years of paint out of the way so that I can open them. Can I just open them and then close them without risking leaks, or is there some kind of gasket that I'll need to replace? Is it okay to use a heat gun to soften the paint?



Any tips or warnings would be greatly appreciated.

jpf321

paint smaint

i think you'll find the rust offering must greater resistance than the paint .. so just leave the paint in place and torque hard but smooth with a 5ft pipe on the end of you wrench for leverage .. i just last week had to break out some old radiator plugs .. but then i didn't have to worry about the rad being connected to a pipe that was disappearing into the floor .... i live dangerously .. better wait for a few more responses ;-)



.. but seriously, i don't think the paint will be your problem. 

Brian_74

Rust?

Oh no, I had assumed the trap was brass. Just out of curiosity, why don't you think the paint will offer much resistance? I know it can't compete with a 5' breaker bar, but I thought about how difficult it is to open a window that's been painted shut and assumed the traps would be similarly difficult.



Most of my experience with rusted fasteners comes from working on old cars. I was always more of a penetrating oil and heat person myself. But I did have to use a breaker bar to get one of my main vents off even after several days of soaking with Kroil, so I know what you mean.

jpf321

hmm brass... good point

with a window, you are usually trying to avoid breaking the glass or damaging the wood .. additionally, their is a considerable amount more paint around the perimeter of a window .. and the forces fiction, glue-force, penetration into the window box are all significantly stronger and different .. and i've yet to figure out how to get the leverage of a 5' breaker bar to push straightup in equal amounts on two edges of a window .. it's just different .. with the plugs, as soon as the slightiest turn got going, the paint basically exploded off .. in fact i found the paint was harder to remove after softening since it doesn't explode off .. but twists around ..



you're right .. brass should be significantly easier than my cast iron radiator plugs .. i didn't use any penetrating or soaking solvent .. just good old fashion leverage and body weight .... like i said, i live dangerously, it was my own gear, and the only person i have to hear it from is my wife .... and the radiators were not installed so i was able to lay them down and get an optimal angle on the bar ...



since their brass .. try a 3ft bar :-) .. you may be surprised how easily they open up.

Charlie from wmass

do not torque too hard

that is how threads get snapped off. you need to make sure you do not spin the whole trap and break off the iron pipe at the threads.

Unknown

Traps

Hi Brian - I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about using a big wrench or cheater

pipe. Using torque like that you are likely to twist something out of shape. I've always used a pneumatic impact wrench and a socket and got the covers off fairly easily.  If you don't have an impact wrench or able to borrow one, most rental places have electric ones available.



I never have had a problem with heavy paint on the traps and I think you'll find they will open easier than you think.  I'd be a little leery of using a heat gun. Heat guns can put out pretty high heat, 500 degrees plus which is way more than 212 degrees of steam so you might  damage something inside that the replacement kit doesn't have.  If you run into a problem, you might try cutting along the seam with a razor knife. I'd try that when they were hot (with steam) as the paint might be softer. Using an impact wrench I think you'll find it quite easy to get them open.



Charlie: Since my experience with opening old traps is rather limited (under 50), do you see any problems with using an impact wrench on traps?

- Rod

Charlie from wmass

Jury is out for me

90 percent of my work is single pipe steam. I am interested in electric impact wrenches and steam traps.

Gordo

Can you See

Who made your traps?  Illinois?

Brian_74

tool time!

Thanks, Rod. I haven't bought a new tool in long time. This might be just the excuse! By the way, how's the non-contact thermometer working for you?



After I open a trap, can I just close it back up? There's no gasket that would need to be replaced, right?

Brian_74

Thanks, Charlie.

I appreciate the reminder to be careful. I think right now I'm going to have the opposite problem.

Brian_74

I'm a horrible photographer

The traps were (originally) made by the Ideal Heating Equipment Manufacturing Company of Cleveland, Ohio. I don't think they're in business anymore. Part of the reason I want to open the traps up is to bring an element to the shop to make sure I get the correct replacements.

Brian_74

Fingers crossed for an easy removal!

I hope you're right and I am surprised. I tend to prepare for the worst.

Brian_74

oh, wait

I forgot, most of traps are too close to the walls to have room for an impact wrench. I photographed one of the few where access is easy. Maybe no impact wrench for me.

Gordo

You Might Want

to take the whole trap off and ship it to Tunstall to get trap elements made up.  It may need a whole new cap, too.



Careful analysis may be needed to determine what is more cost effective:  Rebuild or replace.



Your photo is fine!   It's hard to photo white on white with a flash.

Brian_74

I might have to wait until spring

Thanks, Gordo. I tried loosening the cover today. Even after scraping away some paint, I couldn't get the cover off. Even if an electric impact wrench would work, I don't have enough clearance for one on most of the radiators. So I think I'm going to have to wait until spring and then remove the entire trap.



How do I figure out what's a suitable replacement?

Gordo

A Suitable Replacement ?

The flippant reply would be "whatever fits, babe".  You may need to install what I am pleased to call a "pipe stretcher" or nipple extender.   It is a short coupling  with male threads on one end and female threads on the other.  Sometimes, the 1/2" pipe can be moved up a bit. This often changes the length you need out from the radiator, however.



Then you have to remove the spud from the radiator.   That can be fun.  



Those outboard, sideways traps can be a challenge to replace.  On second thought, re-building may be the way to go after all.



It looks like you'll need to remove the trap, open 'em up with an impact wrench, and replace the guts.   With a new cap and anti-seize on the threads, one should be able to open the trap for servicing down the road  with just an ordinary wrench. 



Make it easier for the next guy.

Brian_74

That might be why

someone replaced one of the original traps with what I think is a Trane B1 trap. Very easy to open. But broken inside. Of course, there's only one in the whole house like that. Thanks for the advice, Gordo.

Gordo

Its Hard to Stop a Trane

 But that water hammer sure did!



Trane B-1 it is.  They don't make those anymore, either.



They are rebuild-able, if the non-renewable seat type's seat is not  worn and pitted



I'd go with a B & J 122.  They fit nicely on that Trane spud so you usually don't need to change any of that piping.

gerry gill

whenever i've run into Ideal traps

they have always been those large outboard traps and i've always used Barnes & Jones rebuild kits made for the large Mouat outboard traps to repair them..that makes sense since Mouat, Stay-rite, and Ideal Heating shared the same building and Ideal made Mouats and Stay-rites traps for them..put a pipe wrench on the vertical pipe and pull up while stomping on a pipe wrench on the cover and it should come off..

Gordo

You Are A Steely-Eyed Steam Man, Mr. Gill

  Do you have the B&J part # for that?

gerry gill

Not as good as you guys Gordo,

but we try..4017 is the kit number if memory serves correctly.

nicholas bonham-carter

what about a picture

i would like to see this "stomping on the pipe wrench" maneuver-can we have a video!--nbc

Brian_74

Nice way to wake up!

I went to bed thinking about disconnecting radiators this winter, and see that maybe things are not so bad. Thanks so much for all the suggestions--and the stomp technique and the part ##. Incredibly helpful. Thanks so much!

Brian_74

Part # was exactly right

Thanks again, Mr. Gill. There's a B&J dealer not too far from me. I'll stop by Monday and see what they say. I'm still trying to picture the stomp maneuver though. I'll have to get out the wrenches and try it later.

Brian_74

successful modified Gill stomp

I didn't think I was coordinated enough to do the Gill stomp so I changed it a bit. I levered the wrench on the vertical pipe using a block of wood. I held it using my foot, which left my hands free to open the trap. And it worked!



I'm a little disappointed by what's inside. I'm not sure what I expected, but I thought it would be something more than this....



Anyway, thanks again for sharing your technique.