The end of heating systems?

Devan

Could this super insulation one day mean the end for heating systems as we know it?



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPb2Ta4lOlA">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPb2Ta4lOlA</a>

SpeyFitter

Why not

It would be interesting to see if you could do a heat loss on a house and plug in a bunch of u factors to see how much insulation you would require to just rely on building heat gains to hold on to heat for design heat loss. Things such as lights, and human radiation to the heat space being enough to keep the space worm.

We still have a long way to go.I have gotten into wars with contractors about why they are using a 2 x 4 as a thermal break on the slab edge with ground on the other side of the foundation when they should be using minimum 2" closed cell insulation which is what you sometimes try to base your heat loss off of.

Gordy

Promising stuff

 I have been following Aerogel for a while. You would think the gov. would put funding dollars into such a promising energy saving product.

 Even if it never could be produced as cheap as windows, and insulation of today. The energy cost analysis of the life of a building would make it worth its use to save energy.



I did come across some aerogel strips that get fastened to the wood framing as a thermal break. Thermalblok is what it is called.



Gordy

Mark Eatherton

Been watching this stuff for a while...

Looks like it has a ways to go before it is cost effective and sturdy enough to handle the typical installation scenarios, but nonetheless, does look promising.



Clarity in glass is a touchy subject with most people. In the process of tempering glass, you can get some wavyness in the glass, and some people flat will not accept it. It doesn't bother me much, because I understand why it is there, but when you are dealing with a bazillionaire, they don't want to see ANY flaws. I think they have a way to go yet as it pertains to glass. I'm not threatened.



However, if we eliminate the window losses using Power e windows, it's not a problem anyway :-)



Electrically induced R value...



ME

ErikV

Government funding

is the only reason this stuff exists, they (NASA) have put ALL of the funding into this product so far. Indeed, gov't funding has, as usual, produced a great opportunity here for venture capital ... 

Kal Row

just take you water heater for eg

140-160 inside - room temp outside - what does it have? one inch of foam? apx r7 to r10, so between 70 indoor and outdoor you need 1" of foam - but, u need ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF IT!!! - where no outside air or ground touches the structure of the building - yes foam board everywhere outside - including under footing - and spray sealer between the foam boards,  

However,  this house had better have ERV's and IAQ monitors - or the mold will kill you  just as efficiently!!!! - maybe even ducted air recirc vents with uv lights - up the oudside walls to attic and down a chute to basement -

as if that wasnt enough compitition - supper high eff multi-splits like the mitsubishi citi-multi system that heats down to -17f - are going to come  down in price as samsung brings their's on line - 

so i dont think i would recomend my child to go into the hydro-heat business

Gordy

Yes but

The government drops the developmental ball once "their" goal is achieved wih limitless funds.  Example Aerogel was developed for space probes inulating sensitive equipment, and a media to trap particals from a comets trail. Instead of taking it to the point where it could globaly benefit society immensly.



Gordy

Charlie from wmass

I have two sons and I hope at least one follows my lead.

You can not seal off a home to the point where you have zero heat loss. I do not live in a vacuum nor can I so I think hydro heat will be safe.

Devan

Agree

HRV/ERV would be needed , But not sure in 25years or so if pipes. pump, valves, expansion tanks, etc..............as we know it, would be needed with a extreme super insulated house. The incadesent light bulb shoud suffice.

joel_19

hvac

super insultion won't do it at least up here. We have houses being built r-20 around foundtion r-40 wall r-60 roof well sealed mostly all foam. They still need heat. Granted they don't need much but still gotta have it. Radiant is out from the standpoint of warm  floors because the floors would never be hot enough to feel warm. panel rads and an ERV are the way to go in these homes. The Mitsubishi units will heat them as well but not as comfy.



Besides what about all the old houses that are not super insulated most New.England houses are pre 1980. Probably half are pre 1945. They are superinsulating a few of those by gutting the inside spraying foam and then stripping the siding and adding 4" more on the outside,but this is rare.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Eventually,

they will find a way to heat people without heating the entire building.  Everyone will have a PHD (Personal Heating Device).

Mark Eatherton

Will probably spend more time in cooling mode....

than heating mode, it at all in heating mode ;-)





ME

CC.Rob

passive house anyone?

[url=http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html]http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html



and this interesting take on mechanicals and related issues:



http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxwaGNvbmZlcmVuY2VvY3QxNzIwMDl8Z3g6N2M1ZTBhZGNmOWY5YjIwMg

NRT_Rob

R-2000

was a standard canada played with for awhile. reports I've heard said houses built to the R-2000 standard required occupants to open windows. In the winter. In the artic.



It is absolutely possible to build an envelope that loses less heat than is generated by the use of lights, people, computers, etc. However, it's cost prohibitive.



Even passive house designs need mechanical systems. combined heat/DHW systems make a lot of sense, but when your peak load is 10kbTUs/hr and your yearly usage is tiny, mod/con boilers don't make much sense and air furnaces have little downside except additional fan energy... comfort and efficiency can be quite good since passivehouse envelopes are designed to be very comfortable (high MRT even without radiant heat).



I think the future is going to require more total environmental knowledge though: humidity, ventilation, heating and cooling will need to be addressed, elegantly, by aggressively small mechanical systems. Heat pump, ventilation, etc.. If you can do heat pumps, ventilation, heating and cooling, then you've got a leg up on that market. Downside is that the systems should be smaller and cheaper and so are the houses. So the available profitability is going to be lower.



But that's new construction. Everyone currently living could probably stay working on existing homes and retrofits until they die with no problem even if passivehouse were mandated tomorrow. and it won't be, though energy codes may get a lot more aggressive. I wonder how all the natural gas stuff lately is going to affect the economics of energy and energy codes though..

DavidK_2

PHD

i.e. a warm sweater

CC.Rob

check these out

Good points. Check these out from the fall passive house conference. They are clearly moving on the kinds of mechanical, economic, and other issues you raise.



[url=http://sites.google.com/site/phconferenceoct172009/home]http://sites.google.com/site/phconferenceoct172009/home

D107

Suppose future windows were virtual?

A far-out idea perhaps...but suppose windows only appeared on the inside wall as a projected image of a tiny lense on the outside wall, so the real-time view of the occupant was about the same as if there was a real window there?--minus the heat loss--and solar gain i guess...or possibly project other images if, on a rainy day they wanted to look out on a view of sunny Paris?

malp

row homes

My sister just moved into a railroad apartment in a large row home in Brooklyn. You could super insulate that place cheap.The building's long and narrow and only the front and back walls and roof are exposed. Compare that with a similarly big suburban detached house. You'd spend a fortune insulating all the exterior walls. Plus, you'd never make back the money from remodeling, where in fast-appreciating Brooklyn, you probably would. Super insulated homes will become a reality. Just not in your older established suburbs.

Gordy

Sit on that one David

That idea is probably the cheapest method to reduce heatloss through a window yet.



 Problems would be what about the outside, and Egress.  I guess project the image of a window.......With a big Pit Bull looking out to keep the thieves at bay!! I guess a section of wall that would open in an emergency situation for the egress.





Gordy

bob_46

Virtual

I think the virtual window idea will be a winner. There is an app for the iPhone that makes it appear transparent so that you can txt while you walk/drive and still see where you are going. Boeing is designing a flying wing type airliner, one of their concerns is no place for windows so they are experimenting with virtual windows. I think it was Hot Rod that said we should all live in styrofoam coolers. We all love windows and fireplaces. With LCD windows there would be no loss, in fact gain could be a problem. There would be no UV damage to floors and furnishings and the home would be more secure. If you had a LCD virtual fireplace you wold solve lots of headaches. No heat loss no drafts no smoke no leaky flashings etc. You could put a pane of ME glass over it to keep the radiant effect.