2 upper flr apts slow to heat/cold

jpf321

In my sister's co-op, which is nearby to me, they are having a problem with 2 apartments (top floor (6th flr) and the one below it (5th flr) on the same line) which are complaining "too cold" (apts below these (flrs 1-4) on the same line do not have complaints) .. they have 2-pipe steam ... pictures of my sister's radiator setup is here <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/jpf321/Radiator7320Austin?authkey=Gv1sRgCLzY46u529e9vwE# ">http://picasaweb.google.com/jpf321/Radiator7320Austin?authkey=Gv1sRgCLzY46u529e9vwE# </a> ..



she is on top floor... i have asked here for pics of a middle floor setup.



Where to start troubleshooting a problem like this? I have already suggested that they make sure the rad fins are clean and not crudded...

  could this be a trap problem?

  an over/under boiler pressure problem?

I don't know if they have any opportunity for better venting/insulation .. she is trying to get my in for a site visit within a few days. Maybe they have main vents that need replacing.



FYI, other bldg apts are too hot .. my sister's included .. she has window open and it's 78degF inside. The bldg has already had a "plumber" in and he said there is nothing that can be done for the cold apts .. i contend that when the system was designed (back in the 1920's) .. it was designed properly and there were no problem apts. The building is now considering either installing new windows in those apts or cranking the building heat another few degrees.



this is the apt building in question: <a href="http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Queens,+New+York+11375&ll=40.7178,-73.840085&spn=0.000669,0.002334&t=h&z=19">http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Queens,+New+York+11375&ll=40.7178,-73.840085&spn=0.000669,0.002334&t=h&z=19</a> I believe the problem apts are on the NW corner .. where the pastry shop is labeled.

Steamhead

Link to the pic didn't work

can you post it in this thread? 

Unknown

2 Pipe Steam

If your sister's apartment has 2 pipe steam there is absolutely no reason for overheating. On a two pipe system (unlike a one pipe)  you can throttle down the intake of steam (heat) to each radiator using the valve on the steam pipe going into each radiator. If you want to go to thermostatic control you can use TRVs on the steam pipe. That extra heat has got to be adding beaucoup  extra dollars to their fuel bill! They would do well to forget the plumber (let him stick to leaky sink taps) and get a real steam pro.



When you're looking for vents on steam mains, keep in mind that mains don't have to be horizontal.  - Rod

jpf321

pictures??

Do these pics work better?

http://picasaweb.google.com/jpf321/Radiator7320Austin?authkey=Gv1sRgCLzY46u529e9vwE#

nicholas bonham-carter

you are so right!!

building owners, and tenants in the days when the apartments were new, would never have put up with less than completely even heat. a plumber who said "nothing can be done" would lose his union card [maybe]. this is so important for everyone to remember that these systems were often the top of the line, and were quiet, comfortable and economical.

the first place to start is...what is the pressure, and is the high pressure shutting off the vents? probably these investigations should start with a different "plumber" who knows steam, or is willing to learn!

there could well be non-functioning riser vents , or traps, in this area, or perhaps this is a vapor system which has orifice valves which are out of kilter because of high pressure.--nbc

Unknown

Orifice Article

NBC  mentioning "orifices" rang a bell.  JPF - Here's a couple of articles by Henry Gifford which might be of interest to you if you don't already have them. - Rod

Orifice Article -    http://sites.google.com/a/energysavingscience.com/www2/BSEOrifices.pdf

TRV Article -  http://sites.google.com/a/energysavingscience.com/www2/BSETRVs.pdf

jpf321

excellent articles....along simliar lines ...

I found this to be very interesting ... [url=http://www.tunstall-inc.com/fuelsavings.html]http://www.tunstall-inc.com/fuelsavings.html



Apparently in calendar year 2007 my sister's building (95units, 351 rooms...according to city records) used $95,000 in fuel .. i wonder how much of that was spent steaming returns :-)

c.t.kay

2 pipe steam

If this interests you ,Mr Gifford and myself just completed a building near this. 200 +/- convectors / Radiators ,now running a 1.5 PSI of steam.Feel free to contact me at               347 231 8535       . Thanks

jpf321

thanks .. Mr. Kay

I just forwarded your info along...I'd like to be invited to watch and learn if you get a call ....I'm only a few blocks away from the building. - jpf