black rubber

joel_19

Hi all,

   been awhile since i was here. Some years ago there was a red rubber tube that did some not so nifty things. They came out with the new black tube that solved it all. Well...... now i am seing systems full of rust and crud siezed circs etc.

Guess what the common denominator is? No brand names please but i'd like to know if I'm the only one.

tim smith

Corroding, blocked up circs etc

Sounds like non barrier tube, you need to isolate non barrier tube from any steel, cast iron components in system or this will nag you forever. Stainless condensing boiler and bronze/stainless pumps or Stainless braze plate heat exchanger and non ferrouse pumps/components ie stainless/bronze pumps. Good luck, Tim

Mark Eatherton

The un recognized problem...

Yeah, THAT problem.



And why worry about names, because there is only one manufacturer of rubber hose used in the radiant heating world, and we all know it is Watts. And they only produce one product, that product being Onix.



My good friend Richard "Der Heatmeister" Graves has been saying that he is seeing accelerated failures of ferrous components and accumulation of "gunk" for many years in systems that used this product.



I even hooked him up with some factory types, who stood there looking at the "problem" and they said they didn't see anything wrong...



And he is not alone, many people have noted the same conditions, including the "Rice Crispy" syndrome, where when you move the tubing, it sounds like Rice Crispy's...



My theory, where ever the tubing is cut to be installed on a barbed fitting, there is a path of rubber that is parallel to the barbed fitting that is allowing oxygen diffusion to penetrate the hose, and this oxygen is causing accelerated oxidation of not only the ferrous components in the system, but also the rubber type material. (I know, it's not really a "rubber" material, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and smells like a duck, DUCK")



Richard has tried cleaning up these systems using full strength Rhomar cleaning products to no avail. The gunk just keeps coming back.



I have a lot of friends in the industry, some who are closely related to this product as manufacturer reps, wholesalers and installers, and it is not my intent to alienate ANY of them, but this issue is going to start spiraling out of control. I've already alienated the manufacturer, and that hurts, but you can not hide from the truth.



Eventually, some sharp, hungry lawyer is going to catch wind, and then the fun begins.



Having been through the Goodyear debacle, the only suggestion I can make is to document E V E R Y T H I N G. If it's not in writing, in the eyes of the court, it does not exist.



The finger pointing always starts early, and it starts with the installers, and ends with the manufacturers. Read the instructions, install it the way they tell you to do, maintain it the way they tell you to, and if and when it fails, your butt is covered.



If you do a site search for rubber hose, there is a lot of information available.



Best of luck.



ME

joel_19

Uhhuh

Hi Mark! nice to hear from you. thankfully we didn't install any of it. sadly quite a bit has gone in around here the last few years. we just ripped some out that failed on a hydro air system, tube blew apart in the wall .It and the boiler all nicely coated in rust. Oxygen barrier? Me thinks the emporer may not have clothes.

joel_19

tim

we've known about doing that for almost 20 years. the tubing in question however is supposed to have a barrier on it.

hot_rod

also marketed as a solar

tube with a funky warranty, read 3C in the link below.



www.wattsradiant.com/pdf/warranties/WR_Warranty_Onix_SolarApps_EN_20080501.pdf





All solar systems go into stagnation temperatures, and often in excess of 325F. Stagnation occurs when the power goes out, a control or pump fails, or simply when the tank reaches setpoint.



Looks like this warranty implies it is the owner or installers problem if it exceeds the time and temperature restrictions.



Why do this again?

joel_19

HR

that's interesting we always do the solar in copper do you know of any PEX type tube that can handle solar?