System 2000 air problem

Mel_6

I purchased this System 2000 EK1 Frontier model back in March of this year. From the beginning there was air in the system that wouldn't go away even after purging boiler. I had a few changes made to the original installation, such as Taco pump to Grundfos UPS 15-58, air piping from outside, Honeywell Supervent, and pex tubing to reduce noise.



I purchased the System 2000 from a Premier Dealer recommended by EK. The dealer contracted out the installation to another company. This other company doing the installation did not even level the base. When they refused to acknowledge air in my system, I contacted another Premier Dealer who sent supervisors over and acknowledged air was in my system. However, even after installing a Honeywell Supervent, the air problem remained, and they also bled the system at boiler. The supervisor said there was no leak and "this is one for the books." He also did his best to level base--I told all this to Energy Kinetics.



EK sent over a representative for my area and he could not find anything wrong except for a possible air trap near expansion tank, so he instructed the local company to install an air vent. Even after the air vent was installed, there still was air in the system.



I closed the main water feed to boiler for three days and did not see any change from either idle or running on PSI gauge.



I complained again and they sent the same EK representative who by instruction from main office changed location of expansion tank from supply to return side. After a week or so, I no longer heard the water splashing at the boiler, but I still get a fairly loud sloshing noise coming up the supply pipe in my den, which is a zone by itself with one long 14 foot baseboard section (2 - 7 foot sections combined). I have 3 zones with 1 up and 2 down. Den is on main level. I have hot water baseboard heat, and this is oil-fired.



I was told by EK to wait a few weeks after the expansion tank location was changed for air to go away. Since I still hear that sloshing noise, which I am told is an air bubble, that still persists, I am now told after the few weeks to wait 4 more weeks. The sloshing noise occurs on the call for heat in my den on the first pass, and then it disappears until the next call for heat in my den.



With my old Weil McLain in the years I had that boiler, air would go away either same day or next at most, so I am bewildered why this air problem persists with the System 2000.



The boiler is located in my basement and I am attaching pictures to show the installation. Is there anything you see that could be causing the air problem, or any suggestions on what to do?

MIke_Jonas

We've met??

Are you the gentlemen that has a 12 page post regarding this installation going on in a different forum?

Mel_6

Yes

Yes, that is me. Seems the other forum hit a wall so I am trying here. Is this a problem?



Those are different pictures by the way--now with expansion tank on return side.

MIke_Jonas

In a nutshell

Hows' about I save you and everyone on here a ton 'o time rehashing what has already been hashed to very fine pieces?



I have read (and commented) on your other lengthy post and feel I can comment further...and I mean this in a very sincere and good hearted way.



There is no amount of pictues that you're go going to post that is going to help anybody on line help you with your problem. You can post 12 pics an hour and write even more detail than you've already written and it ain't gonna help.



I know you've had EK guys out there. I don't know them, but if what you have said is true, they're the wrong guys. To give them the benefit of the doubt, I realize there are two sides to every story and we've only heard yours. To tell you that it will take weeks ot get the air out of your system is patently wrong.



In my very humble opinion, this is the very best advice you're ever going to get for that system......Call another Pro. There are some very good guys out there that I would be humbled to be in their presence. You have not found one yet.



Use the "Find a Professional" here.

Check the radiant panel association.

NATE has a hydronics certification.



I'm a little cloudy as to how this was purchased and installed. At this point, it's moot. But, somewhere along the line, someone sold you this boiler (on-line?) and someone installed it for you (right?). You will have to bite the bullet and pay someone to come out. Everybody has a trip charge. Pay it. Even of they can't fix your problem, you'll know who not to call next time.



If you spent the same amount of time trying to find a good boiler guy as you have spent trying to find someone on-line to help through pictures, this would have been fixed by now.



Year in and year out, 75% of my time is spent fixing what other contractors (and a few homeowners) have done. NO ONE is going to be able to tell you how to fix this by looking at pictures. You've already tried that. And NO ONE is going to be able to look at your pictures and be able to "point your boiler guy in the right direction". A good boiler guy will not need advice from someone sitting at their desk 5 states away. I fix stufflikes your every day. But, unless I was there and could take in the whole picture, I can't offer any help.



Other than to Find a Professional. And keep looking. When you find the Right Guy, you will be amazed.

Mel_6

I

have tried the Professional Services link but not one single name came up for my zip code--18330.



If you read my other posts you should know I have had another EK Premier dealer send over two supervisors who do not know what is wrong--and I have PAID them. This is a Heating Help forum and I am asking for help.



If you know someone who I should call to come over, by all means let me know who. I already paid more than enough to get nowhere.



The only lesson here is apparently stay away from Energy Kinetics, especially since you say it shouldn't take months to get rid of air in a system and EK keeps stalling me.



Sometimes pictures do help someone spot something wrong and I thought perhaps that might happen here, even if you don't.



Oh, and the two supervisors, even the one who positioned the pump wrong, are NATE certified!

heatboy

The Honeywell air vent will probably.....

......not work correctly the way it is piped into the system When the pump starts and creates an increase in discharge pressure and the vent can't open to vent any air accumulated. I would bet that the vent releases air after the pumps stops? Is there a manual purge set-up anywhere in the return piping near the boiler?



heatboy

Lehigh Valley, PA

MIke_Jonas

What are you trying to achieve?

Are you looking for diy advice? If so, I'll go sit on the sidelines and let you hash this out all over again.



Are you looking for advice to give to a Pro? Seriously?



Within 100 miles of your zip code, (4) outfits came up under Find a Professional. Did you call any of them? Did you ask if they are in your area or know of anyone in your area?



Between NATE, the rpa and just one boiler manufacturers' web site, I came up with over 150 outfits within 100 miles, that could look at your system. Took me ten minutes.



You've had problems with this for how long? Months? The right boiler guy is there, he just might not be next door.

Ron Jr._3

2 things .......

What type of pex is that ? And did they happen to purge the system with a high pressure ? Purging the zones with the pressure reducing valve filling the system at 12 psi just don't cut it . We keep a steady 20 to 25 psi ( with a bucket under the boiler relief valve , just in case ) .

 I have to agree with Heatboy . That Honeywell air eliminator ain't doing much in that spot . I've found the 3/4 air eliminator in the fancy relief valve / air eliminator / bypass tee works just fine . It's all we used on this 8 zone , LARGE water volume system . Istalled last week . And quite a few rads were built in with no means to let the air out . Next day the homeowner called to say all the rads were heating nicely .  

Good luck in finding the problem . I for one don't mind you posting your questions and pics here .

Mel_6

Yes, heatboy,

there is are purge valves on all three zones on return piping.

Charlie from wmass

Well I admit not liking system 2000.

But I think if they were installed as Ron Jr does I may feel different. I think the differences in the pictures of your install and his are pretty clear. I feel the issue is no one wants to tell you you need to start from step one and go forward. This may mean a total repipe. The boiler has potential to be great for fuel efficency but like most items a bad install negates all the engineering in the world. This type of installations of these boilers is common place in my area.

Mel_6

Very nice

install RonJr. That looks like the kind of install I need! The expansion tank is my only concern in that picture. The NATE certified supervisor changed location of expansion tank from original location similar to yours to below boiler in back--he thought the expansion tank up high was causing air problem.



The pex is Wirsbo 3/4" hePex tubing to 3/4" copper.



I agree about the Honeywell Supervent--that was recommended to get rid of air.



I really like your work.

heatboy

Swapping the....

......pump and vent locations would probably be my first corrective action. This would allow the vent to work properly. Even though you have pictures posted, it may look different to me in 3D (in regards to compression tank placement). :-)



climatecadvanced.com

Ron Jr._3

Thanks alot Mel

This was actually a 2 day job and collaborative effort   I'm still kinda shocked how this little boiler can heat such a huge home with mostly cast iron rads and baseboard .....

I forget exactly where we mounted the expansion tank , but the circulator is definitley pumping away from it . But regardless of the placement , a diaphragm expansion tank in of itself should not be causing the air issue . Rereading your original post , I'll bet the system has to be purged more thoroughly . Where are you located ?  

rich pickering

why not?

Heatboy, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't air vent out?  The vent don't know where it is.  It just sees pressure and flow.  Get enough air captured and it vents. 

Where is the best place?  I'll agree, before the pump. 

But that little piece of metal has no idea where it is.

heatboy

The increase in pressure......

.......decreases the size of any air bubbles and will mostly just go right by the seperator and go right back into the system then go around and increase in size due to the pressure decrease.

CC.Rob

hmm....

I'm a HO, so technically that makes me unqualified to comment on this. I also have nearly zero familiarity with how exactly EK wants their boilers piped. A quick glance at their website suggests they don't put the I&O manual online. Bummer.



But...



The near-boiler piping stinks. It's too tight. There's too many diameter changes packed together. There's elbows all over the place. Hard to believe that kind of piping meets manufacturer specs and standard hydronic piping practice.



Of particular intrigue is the way an air trap (inverted U) is piped to the expansion tank. Good one!



Keep looking for someone. Probably someone who will suggest a complete repipe, and among other things will show you a decent diagram from the I&O manual about what's wrong and how to fix it.



Just some thoughts.

rich pickering

increase in pressure?

So if one system is pumping into the seperator at 12 and one is pumping away at 20, what's the difference?  Seperators don't care too much about pressure, velocity is what makes the difference.

Flo

Honeywell SuperVent

Sorry to re-open this post after two years, but i haven't seen anything else related to these supervents.



I installed one of these on the supply side about 7 feet from the pump. The pump is pumping away from boiler towards the supervent.



I still ended up bleeding each radiator individually as the Supervent didn't seem to be getting the air out.



The system works fine and worked fine without it in the past, however we had to bleed the radiators again 2 weeks after we put in the boiler. So i figured the air vent was what we were missing to avoid further bleeding in the future.



What's the best place to install this vent? Is it fine where it is or should i move it to the return side?



If this vent was working correctly, should it be getting all of the air out of the system, Including the air in the radiators? My radiators are hooked up to a two pipe direct return loop.

Harvey Ramer

First time i've seen this thread but

I see something dreadfully wrong. The Flat Plate Heat Exchanger needs to be installed vertically, not horizontally. I'll bet you anything this is where youyr air trap is.