Boiler Wiring Question

FredH

May have posted to wrong topic beforeJust bought house

Here is what I know

1964 American Standard Arcoliner  wideback with General fittings tankless (estimated  original cap 5GPM) 164,000BTU/hr Becket burner

Hi Limit Detroit Lubricator (Breaks burner line voltage on temp) Set at 185 Deg (Coasts up to 200+ ) Closes at approx 160 Deg

3 taco 007 circulators with 3 American Standard relays with terminals for TT and SS(stack switch is non existing but looks like they are wired and jumped)

3 luxon programable thermostats (new to replace old Honewell mercury round)

I assume thermostat controls circulators only but not sure.

Here is confusion.

SPDT American Standard aquastat in tankless well is wired  NC(normaly closed)

back to TT on burner relay (however, it is always closed, I am assumining it is malfunctioning.) it is wired in parallel with wires going back to circulator relays but not sure why. I think that it is just a complex (cobbled) way to jump TT on burner relay. Possibly an attempt to disconect circulator  and fire burner on low temp but not sure how. Not sure when NC opens( above or below adjustable setting)

On back is White Rogers 11d31-1 spdt wired to close on rise to break line voltage to circulators. Adjustable differential is set to as close to 0 as possible

If not set to 120Deg, circulators will not turn on and boiler will hang a few degrees above 160 deg on hi lim switch.

Is it normal to have such a differential from top (temp/pressure guage and lolim sensor? It seems like a rather primitive way to control.

Is boiler just bouncing between differential on hilim switch.

what about thermal shock?  Should of cracked a long time ago.



 30 deg outside with all 3 circulators calling for heat, boiler  drops  to 130degs and  I still have hot water for shower. Tankless does have 30 gal aqua boost with its own circulator and separate aquastat.

heating approx 3000 sq/ft (1000 perzone) Have not updated insulation yet.



any advice/insight   

 would Intellicon HW+ help  save $ or just lower differential on hilim? Would circulators ever turn on?

Paul Fredricks_3

Oh boy

I hate those old control set ups. Hard to get them all working correctly, because if one is out of calibration it's hard to know which one it is, and that throws everything off. The best bet is to remove those aquastats and use an all in one control, like Honeywell L7224 or Beckett's Aquasmart. The circulator relays would be wired to ZC and ZR.  A job for a professional.



Intellicon might help. Couldn't hurt, but may be a pain to wire into the existing controls.



However, here are the facts: This boiler may well last till the end of time, but that just means it may not leak water. It probably has a bunch of air leaking in between the sections killing the actual running efficiency of the system, but possibly making the combustion efficiency look good. And that's a lot of water and metal to keep hot when you aren't using it. Doing all of the above work will not be cheap. I'm thinking something about a silk purse and a sows ear. The best bang for your buck is to start planning the replacement of this unit with a modern unit, probably saving you a lot of energy costs for the years to come. A much better use of your capital.

FredH

Boiler wiring question

Paul,

Actually boiler is in good condition.

Was checked for CO leaks

HiLimit  seems to be calibrated to the separate temp/pressure gauge on top.

White Rogers controller is  not obsolete so I would expect it to be within 10-15 deg.

Which does not really mater because it is only taking a snapshot of a moving target.



Why would you suggest a "pro" to install an electronic controller.

Anyone who understands wiring , electricity and can read a schematic should be able to do it.

Remember, it was the "pro" who did not know what he was doing when he installed the newer burner.

It was also a "pro' who replaced a leaky circulator and fixed the lame chamber replacement the last "pro" did, supposedly tuned it up and did not bother to check the functioning of the controls.



Not to mention the other "pro" who just quoted me $1500 to replace a $200. tankless coil at about $125 a bolt. No more complicated than a water pump on an old rusty Chevy. A little penetrating oil and a lot a patience goes a long way. Maybe it is only us  old New England yankees that see value in maintaining old things.

FredH

boiler wiring question

Paul,

Intelledyne controller is actually a lot easier to install than you think.

It is only a dynamic differential on the high lim. Goes in series and picks up line voltage elsewhere. The question is what good will it do to increase the differential from what is already pretty wide and what would be the tradeoffs.

 Got that bit from their tech dept.

FredH

boiler wiring question

Paul,

Becket aquasmart uses Heat Manager Technology which is made by Inteledyne.

It has only been available for a couple of months .

Why would you suggest something like that for such an old boiler.



I am starting to think that you really do not know that much about old or new oil systems.



Can anyone else answer my questions about old Arcoliner.

See first post.

Thanks

Paul Fredricks_3

Fred

You obviously know much more than I do. Good luck to you.

FredH

Boiler Wiring Question

Paul,

 Sorry if I came across as harsh. Never meant to imply that I am smarter or know more than you.

I may have been a little irritated at what seemed like a non answer.

Did not mean as a slight but I was asking specific questions about a particular system that some engineer must of percieved as worthwhile at one point.

Was trying to get insight into what was industry standard at the time.

I have some old 60yr old motocycles that are restored to OEM spec and just because they are not new does not mean they should be scrapped. Also does not mean that they cannot tolerate a few accepted upgrades to make them a little more user friendly.

Also because I am not in position to buy new that I should let this one run like a dog until I can. Every dollor saved goes to bottom line. Engineers motto- If it is not broken, fix it.

No hard feelings

Paul Fredricks_3

OK, let's try again.

I understand the motorcycle comparison. My friend had a Super-X and a Harley Hummer, plus a few others. His current ride is a 48 Indian Chief in beautiful condition.



I still feel that the current controls are more trouble than they are worth. If you can do the work a triple aquastat is the way to go.



Are you saying there is a 40° differential on the high limit? If that's the case I don't think the Itellidyne will do much for you.



I still feel that any work you do to this unit is putting good money after bad. I'm sure a new unit would use less fuel than the current unit, but that is your call. Spend the money on fuel or a unit.

FredH

Boiler Wiring Question

Essentially,

Burner fires to 185-187 on Triple guage.  Adjustable Hi-Lim set to 185 deg.

After shutdown it will continue to rise to about 200Deg.

Comes back on at  around 160deg +/- which translates to arrox 40 deg diferential. I assume it is supposed to be 15-20 Deg

What  I am curious about is why the low limit needs to be set so low to keep the circulators running. It is either way out of wack or there is about 40 degree difference between the top and middle and who knows what return difference is.

If not at HILIM with full demand 3 circs and hot water it may drop to 130deg on the guage. That is why I think that the coil nc switch is just a TT jump. It never does anything I can think off. Even in summer, diff on high lim will fire burner at 160. 

Have  old cataloge specs for boiler but no manual.

Charlie Masone

AquaSmart

HeatManager is a trademark of RW Beckett corp.  The HeatManager dynamic temperature reset inside the Beckett AquaSmart is not the same technology as the Beckett HeatManager manufactured by Intellidyne.

Paul Fredricks_3

OK

Sounds like the unit just runs off High Limit. Not a very efficient way to go. That new aquastat would be nice. Aquasmart even nicer.



I don't remember, are you using the coil for hot water? If so, the new aquastat may give you more even hot water temperatures.

FredH

boiler wiring question

Paul

Thanks for confirming what I suspect. Not even a high safety if this thing ever arcs and welds itself closed.

Tankless is original with  newer everhot 30 gal storage tank. Never have  had problem with hot water. Just a reduced flow in upstairs bath filler due to what is most likely a restricted coil.  Only use it for showers anyway. I can see changing this myself and adding a temper/antiscald valve for about $300 for both. It would get me close to the 4GM cold pressure  that I have and allow to keep the  storage tank hotter and extend capacity.

Just bought house due to lack of space in other.Still carrying 2 mortgages for short term so new boiler is out for now.

Do agree with you that a new one will burn less.

Just had energy audit and am taking 2k rebate to seal and update r-13 attic with blown in cellulose.

Will cost me $1800 out of pocket. But with 3k sq ft of living space  it is probably payback real fast.  Boiler is in finished basement so what does not go up stack is at least heating recreation/TV room

FredH

Tell me more

I will take your word for it.



The HeatManager dynamic temperature reset inside the Beckett AquaSmart

is not the same technology as the Beckett HeatManager manufactured by

Intellidyne.





What is difference between dynamic  temp reset and dynamic low lim?



By the way, my only  true reason to stay loyal to oil is because as a kid I saw  a 3 story Victorian turned to splinters and  watched fireman  pull gas man's body from rubble.

Very powerful experience for impressionable child.



Other reason is NG wants 27k to run gas line down private street.

Charlie Masone

AquaSmart

The HeatManager logic in the AquaSmart constantly adjusts the temperature of the water supplied by the boiler to the inferred heat load.  The Original HeatManager would constantly adjust the differential.

Coany

new operating control in what I would do

 replace those seperate controls with a new Honeywell 7224U in the tankless well.



 it wont cost too much and better temperature control will bring savings 24/7



 

FredH

Aqua stat

Makes sense.

How would I wire three circulators and three thermostats whille giving tankless priorty only on demand. I would want to monitor outflow from storage tank prior to tempering valve.

FredH

honeywell

Thanks.Price is right.

How would I wire in three separate thermostats and circulators? Can I use the existing relays? What would cutout temp and  diff be be set at?

petes

AquaSmart

I offered an opinion however it is removed from view, I understand that the moderators of this site are often inticed by vendors, now it is confirmed...Aquasmart is the best thing that I have ever seen come to the market, is that better?...Certainly dont pretend to not be biased and upstanding, its pathetic...maybe not its reality

R Mannino

It's Still There

It's just further back a page. FYI the Aquasmart is NOT Heatmanager technology or software.