2 floors - very different temperatures

alittlecold

We rent an apt on the second floor of a brownstone-like building. The owner lives downstairs. Their apartment is always quite warm, probably because it is better insulated, etc. The building has single-pipe steam heat and the thermostat for the whole building is in the owner's apartment.



The second floor where we live is much colder. Downstairs might be 75 degrees and we might be 62-64. They've checked that there are smaller valves on the radiators downstairs, very large valves upstairs, etc. The problem seems to be a control problem. Because the owner's apt is well-insulated it never cools down, so the thermostat never tells the boiler to go on to warm up the 2nd floor.  The heating system works fine - when it goes on.



Are there any simple solutions to this? Is there a clever way to set the timer on their thermostat that could help? Or is there some sort of multi-zone thermostat that would measure the temperatures upstairs and downstairs? I guess we could get space heaters, but that seems like a shame when the heater does work.



Any suggestions would be most appreciated and would make everyone here happier!

JJ_4

TRVs or Adjustable Venting

Not a pro here, but no one else has made any suggestions yet.  Sounds like the "well insulated" 1st floor is over-radiated.  They could valve off some radiators or try out adjustable rate venting.  This is one of many sources for inexpensive adjustable vents...I just picked it off the internet.  I have these and they work great at balancing out the system:

http://www.plumbingspecialties.com/HH5.htm  

It is described as:

PART # 60680011, A float-type vent with adjustable port for true proportional venting. Port settings from (#1) slow to (#6) fast venting. 1/8" NPT angle connection. Operating pressure up to 1-1/2" psi. Maximum pressure 10 psi.

A more expensive and perhaps better controlling product is a Thermostatic Radiator Valve, TRV.  Others can recommend a manufacturer, the only one I am familiar with is one made by Danfoss. 

nicholas bonham-carter

chilly upper floor

first of all, does the landlord seem interested in making any corrections to the system, and is he interested in it's cost of operation?

because of the temperature difference, between upper and lower floors,i suspect that there is more wrong with the system,  than merely the location of the thermostat. i suggest that he get a copy of "the lost art of steam heating", available from the shop, so as to better understand how these systems work.

my guess would be that the main venting  [not rad venting], is inoperative, and therefore the steam is taking a long time to arrive at the upper level radiators. by the time the steam has arrived, the thermostat has been satisfied, and shut the burner off.

• proper main line vents assist in getting the steam to each radiator on all floors, at the same time. the alternative is to pay a lot of extra money to the gas company to squeeeeeze the air out of the constipated little openings of the radiator vents.
• 
  
  a better thermostat, such as a honeywell visionpro, could be used with a remote sensor in your apt, while still leaving the control functions for the landlord only. if he wants to keep the same thermostat, then make sure its anticipator is set for steam heat. while these things are checked out, the pressure should be verified, and set as low as possible [1.5 psi max, 6 ounces even better].
  
  all of these things will contribute not only to comfort, but also to reduced fuel use, as well as boiler longevity, so the sooner this deferred maintainace is corrected, the better! for advice on who to call, use the find a professional button above. i would also suggest posting steam questions in the steam section here.--nbc

Tombig_8

Boiler Could Be Fine

Seems to me you have a simple heat loss discrepancy though it's just a casual observation. I've seen it before. Well insulated, new windows,etc. in the owners unit with the thermostat. Rental unit still has lathe/plaster with no insulation, possibly with old single pane double hung windows. Possibly no attic insulation!!

The only real solution is TRV's in the remodeled unit with the stat so their radiators can throttle down while the boiler fires long enough to heat your place. If it's really 62-64 a call to the necessary governing body might get the owner from sitting on his hands. Most require minimum 68* daytime.

David Nadle

Surprising T difference

12 degrees is a surprising difference in temperature. I have a couple of questions.

On a cold day, do the upstairs radiators completely fill? Does the last radiator column and the vent itself get hot? Are the radiators original or could they be improperly sized replacements from a remodel?

One test that could confirm a control problem is to close the valve on the radiator in the room with the thermostat for a day and see if it improves things upstairs.

I think it's inadvisable to put a TRV on the radiator in the room with the thermostat, but if closing that radiator helps you might try replacing the vent with a very slow one, like a Gorton #4.

I kind of doubt the insulation theory. Is his ceiling insulated? If he is losing less heat to outside the upstairs would probably be a beneficiary of that. Is your apartment very drafty?

alittlecold

thanks for all the info so far...

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions so far. Thank you all so much. To answer a few of the questions...



- I do think that the lower unit has been re-done and probably has better insulation, etc. Of course it's also just above the basement where the boiler is, so that may help keep it warm.



- Our 2nd floor apt isn't really drafty, though. The windows are in good shape, and there don't seem to be any unusual drafts from anywhere else.



- There are three radiators and one "heat riser" (vertical pipe, not sure what this is called). At least two of the radiators seem to be original and have "D" valves on them. There is one smaller radiator that looks like it is new. It's in a small room and has a "C" valve. Not sure what valve is on the heat riser. All of the rads and the heat riser get hot fairly quickly once the system goes on. The problem seems to be whether or not the system is on. I don't know what size valves are on the unit downstairs.



- The last time a plumber was here he mentioned that the system was running at 4 psi and he seemed to think that was good. I know from posts here that most people seem to recommend ~1-2 psi but I don't know much about boilers or whether that could be related to this problem.



Thanks again for everyone's advice. While it's a little out of my hands, I am trying to be a good tenant and do some research so that hopefully I can help find a simple solution to this problem.

nicholas bonham-carter

high pressure=non-functioning air vents.

these sytems work adequately at 1.5 psi max, and for real comfort and economy, less than 16 ounces of pressure. my own system lets the air all out by the time i am at 3 ounces. did you ever find any main vents on the system? of course they may have become non-functional due to over-pressure.

if you had a digital thermometer capable of showing "min" and "max" temperatures, it would show your landlords how low the temperatures have been.--nbc

john walsh_2

cold apartment

I think that everyone is right in their approach to solving this problem, but this is only a two family correct? Because the owners apartment is over the basement where there is undoubtedly an uninsulated  steam main and his apartment is undoubtedly well insulated, and with plenty of radiators, I think that the best approach would be to ask him first to shut of a few radiators(especially in the middle of the apartment and over the boiler room) and then -if he is willing to insulate the steam main in the basement. I'm sure that will have the greatest impact on getting more heat in the top apartment.

John