Green pre heater?

Dennis3456

I was just nosing around on the site, stumbled into the Green room.

The heat exchanger to capture the heat from the drain line, transferring it to the cold water tank is just about the dumbest idea I have ever seen.



What would be the ROI on this device? I would bet more energy would be saved if it was never manufactured. But then again the Green movement is more about sell stuff to people then actually saving energy.



I don't want to come off negative, but I was involved in a Platinum LEED certified project recently. 50% of the sustainability of this project was insane, will never produce a ROI in the life time of the structure. The building is going to be a future maintenance nightmare for the owners.



But I guess if it makes the consumer happy, who am I to be intelligent about their choice to do so?

Mark Eatherton

Reducing energy consumption by 40 to 60 % is a BAD idea???

Even AFTER reducing the base load by replacing wasteful shower heads, this device will reduce energy consumption of the new base by 40 to 60%, and you think that is not a good idea?



I have one in my house, and I thing they should be mandatory...



Waste not want not.



What is YOUR perspective?





ME

kcopp

I installed one...

6 yrs. ago when I remodeled my master bath... I have an indirect water heater that is supplied by a "undersized" boiler... w/ 3 kids and a number of guests or the 3 baths... never ran out of hot water yet. Works for me. kpc

Larry Weingarten

ROI vs lifecycle cost

Hello:  It's all about perspective.  ROI is not always the right question.  Systems thinking also would help anyone see savings in the heat maker as the load is reduced.  The perfect example is installing low flow showerheads when installing a new water heater.  The new showerheads can get better than instant payback when a smaller heater is all that's now needed and is installed.



For the occasional splurge, that shower heat exchanger can make taking a long shower pretty easy.... greater savings AND greater comfort.



Yours,  Larry



ps. If you Google "Henry Gifford LEED", you'll see (in my opinion) why LEED is now looking at actually measuring energy use in their buildings.

L'town Radiant_2

Plastic?

I assume that you would have to install these devices on cast iron drain lines...I can't imagine getting all that much heat through a PVC pipe..???

kcopp

it is actually...

made of 3" copper w/ two lenghts of 1/2" copper soldered/ brazed into the outside of the line. It is then placed in a vertical drain line from a shower. google ... GFX heat exchanger.

Dennis

Green pre heater?

Mark,



ROI is really the only important factor, one cannot save money by loosing money.

I would bet after a few years of soap scum build up, that the 40-60% heat recovery is more like 10%.



In the 1970's during the oil crisis, quite a few energy saving devices, mostly based on weird science were sold to consumers. Mostly folks felt good about their new perception of saving energy, it was all in their head. There was no ROI back then, and that is why that energy saving market dried up.



If the Green movement is packaged to consumers as weird science as in the past, once again they will see no ROI, and they will abandon the Green movement.

Mark Eatherton

If everything was based on ROI....

Dennis, I actually had one running in an application for three years, before I took it out and used it as a waste heat recovery device on my modcon boilers vent pipe, and then moved it into my mountain home. The interior, after three years of normal service was amazingly clean. After the modcon app, it was BRIGHT and shiny clean



If everything we did was based upon a good ROI, solar, GSHP, high efficiency boilers and a whole lot more stuff would never be done. Some people do things because it is the "right" thing to do, and don't focus on the ROI, or the other economic factors.



In my case, the device was free (wrote a magazine article), but even if it weren't, I would still have employed it because it reduces the base load by 50 to 60%. As for longevity, only time will tell, and it's not talking...



The guy who holds the patent on my device has been doing this for over 20 years. I'd think that if there were some inherent performance degradation problem, he would be aware of it, and would address it with a required maintenance clause, of which there are none...



Now, if a person would couple this to a refrigerant based heat transfer unit (read water source heat pump), then it could virtually recover 100% of the heat that normally goes down the drain. Oh sure, they don't give those heat pumps away either, but just think of the possibilities in fields other than residential. (commercial laundries, restaurants, manufacturing facilities and on and on...)



But that is just my take on it :-)



ME

Charlie from wmass

They have heat pump water heaters.

Mark you are only a patent away from merging the two things. It is hard to get a vertical drop in many modern commercial spaces outside of the big cities though. With the heat pump applications you would need to be careful to not freeze the waste liquid or thicken the soaps to the point they clog the pipe.

scott markle_2

gravity film heat exchanger

I think the GFX exchanger is the ultimate in KISS.



I get at least a 20 deg rise on my incoming cold water while showering, My shower is a tight 3X3 one piece with ceiling fiberglass unit (I even insulated the sides of it.) I also located the GFX in close proximity to the shower.



Dish washers tubs and washing machines will not get much recovery from these units because the do not drain as they are drawing.



I think 50 to sixty percent recovery is a stretch, but if I'm only getting 15-20% it's still a great investment, considering it's a no maintenance device that should last as long as the plumbing it's connected to.



Unfortunately there is something about this device that makes it hard to sell, I guess it's just not sexy, no moving parts or electronics. I think the original posters perception is typical.



I often don't even mention this device to potential customers, seems that giving people too many options can be an oversell turn off, and this idea just doesn't seem to get people excited. It's a shame that market appeal is such a determinator of success.

Dennis

ROI

Mark,

You don't have to tell me that about ROI, 99.99% of the heating cooling units I have replaced, that is for the last 30 years, were completely operational.



These were replaced because the HO wanted a more efficient system. Their true motivation was to save money on their utility bills. Replacing the old units that had no measurable SEER rating, with a unit with a 13 SEER unit actually made sense. A noticeable drop in operation costs was plainly evident.



On the other hand to replace a 13 SEER unit, as I did today with a 16 SEER unit makes no sense at all, as there will never be a ROI in the operating life time of the unit.

The customer wanted the new unit to obtain the tax credit.

I am in business to fulfill the desires of my customers, not to teach them simple economics.



Maybe folks just want to do the right thing (whatever that is), but if we look at the whole Green movement, isn't it Greener to increase the life cycle of a unit,

or is it more about selling every HO a new unit every 8-10 years?



Keep in mind, Green was originally about recycling, and sustainability.



ROI is not important only as long as there is a tax credit, take the credit away and solar and geothermal will go away, just as the Green movement disappeared after the bogus fuel shortages of the 1970's ended with a major price hike in oil.



I am not saying no one will buy these systems, just that only the very rich will be able to afford to install them. And then these very rich folks will weigh the outlay of funds compared to the money they will save on their utility bills or ROI for short.



I don't want to cross the line into politics or for that matter use the word politics, so I won't, but all good things must come to an end.

So my advice to all contractors on this wall, go forth and make your money while the sun is still shining.

Dennis

.

CMadatMe

16 Seer Condenser Alone

Does not meet the tax credit. The Air Handler or Furnace must also be replaced to meet the EER. Guess No ROI for your customer.

From Energy Star Web Site:

  Question Do I have to replace both my heating and air conditioning to qualify for the tax credit? Answer 

The law does not require that you replace both your heating and air conditioning, but practically speaking you will probably have to replace both for the air conditioner to qualify. 

Most central air conditioners (CACs) on the market today will only be able to qualify for the tax credit if you also replace the air moving device that pushes the cool air through the duct system (this "blower motor" is usually part of the furnace, but if you don't have a furnace it will be part of the air handler). Today's air conditioners need the added efficiency from a highly efficient blower motor (commonly an ECM, Electronically Commutated Motor, or another type of "advanced main air circulating fan") to reach the tax credit efficiency level.

If you recently replaced your furnace, check what kind of "blower motor" it has. If it has an advanced main circulating fan, then it's possible that a new air conditioner could qualify with this furnace.

Another factor to consider is that to get the required certification to prove your system qualifies for the tax credit, the equipment (both air conditioner and furnace) will need to be from the same manufacturer. This is because the systems (condenser, evaporator coil, and blower motor) have to be tested together and currently manufacturers are only testing and certifying their own equipment.

Read these FAQs for more information on heating and cooling systems that qualify for the tax credit:

scott markle_2

bogus?

Denis, Politics is not a dirty word, it's a reality. While we may be generally frustrated with outcomes of political systems, we have to accept that ultimately in a wold of competing interests and perspectives everything is political. You have a valid argument that many "green" improvements have questionable net positive environmental benefits. Clearly our economy is in trouble, I would argue that these problems are systemic. Our debt based economic system works when there is robust economic growth, can a system based on the need for continuous growth be sustained in a world of finite resources? These are the kind of questions that the climate conference delegates should be asking of each other. The energy shocks of the seventies were not manufactured. They were a wake up call to the geological and geopolitical realties of our time. While many in the green movement are out to make a fast buck, there are others who recognize that without radical adjustments to relation ship with energy we are going to face a crises. One that could make us sentimental about the gas lines and stagflation of the seventies. Also remember that these subsidies are in part a politically acceptable way to pump money into the economy, they may not always achieve a direct environmental benefit but they are designed to stimulate industrial output and economic recovery in a way that fosters the development of energy conserving technology. Don't let your legitimate cynicism keep you from recognizing a good idea now and then.

Dennis

Sorry forgot to mention the Lennox G61MPV-60C-091,

95% AFUE gas furnace that went along with the change out.

The original furnace was a 30 year old 175,000 btu, filthy dirty Carrier, with a standing pilot, and a cracked heat exchanger.



I can see a ROI on the furnace with no problem, especially now that it only fires 84,000 btu's on high fire.

Btw, the Lennox HS26-036, 13 seer unit from the customers house is going in my garage for my house, when my R-22 Lennox HS19-411 quits. Now that is ROI baby!

Dennis

Sorry forgot to mention the Lennox G61MPV-60C-091,

95% AFUE gas furnace that went along with the change out.

The original furnace was a 30 year old 175,000 btu, filthy dirty Carrier, with a standing pilot, and a cracked heat exchanger.



I can see a ROI on the furnace with no problem, especially now that it only fires 84,000 btu's on high fire.

Btw, the Lennox HS26-036, 13 seer unit from the customers house is going in my garage for my house, when my R-22 Lennox HS19-411 quits. Now that is ROI baby!

Dennis

Scott, not to burst your bubble or get political at all,

but there is so much oil and natural gas in and around the USA that it would not be possible to exhaust the supply in a 100 years. The only reason these resources are still in the ground is because someone wants them there. The world needs a boogeyman today his name is global warming. In the past we had Radon, Asbestos, etc.. All were weird science at its best. Each and every time the real life factor is left out. Did any of the above also smoke, did they take care of themselves health wise, or would they have gotten cancer anyway, as does quite a few who were not exposed to these hazards, and how about the ones exposed that did not get sick? Global warming is our newest threat, don't get me wrong I look at it as an opportunity. Let's get real, some folks just need a religion, so going Green is their religion of choice. Going Green makes them feel good, and that is good, as long as it doesn't in the end cost us all a means to make a living. Unfortunately most folks on these boards don't know how far some of these fanatics are willing to go. If left unchecked by reality, the coal, nuclear, and fuel oil industries and the business's that use there products will be in danger of extinction by massive regulation and taxation. Since we all know that solar is measured in application via a solar factor, which is never 100% and the same with photovoltaics, we may still have use for those fuels. Look to Japan, where the average temperature in office buildings is 82 degrees in summer. They have embraced energy saving, but to what end? I don't know about you, but this country does not have an energy shortage, so why would I suffer under that high temperature scenario? Do you think the owners of those office buildings in Japan could not afford to lower the temperatures? The question is do you want to suffer with low winter temps and high summer temps to make some one in the weird science religion world happy? Look back at the history of the 1970's weird science and government were proclaiming an oil shortage, we were going to run out is a few years! What happened? You can only fool folks for so long, then you have to come up with a new story. http://newsrealblog.com/2009/11/24/leaked-emails-at-climate-research-unit-smash-global-warming-hysteria/Just remember the Cap and Trade bill is next on the agenda, we better come up with some no fuel alternatives for our customers quickly. Maybe I will go into the long underwear business.



Warning the link in this post is highly political, do not click the link if you do not want to be exposed to politics, the link is for entertainment purposes only. The poster cannot be held liable for the views expressed at this link.

The link is only to be referenced concerning the emails made by the scientist concerning their doctoring of the data that would prove Global Warming to be a false science.

EricAune

Wow, you hit it out of the park there

As I read this I was thinking "Did he really mean what he said?



"The world needs a boogeyman today his name is global warming.



In the past we had Radon, Asbestos, etc.. All were weird science at its best.



Each and every time the real life factor is left out. Did any of the

above also smoke, did they take care of themselves health wise, or

would they have gotten cancer anyway, as does quite a few who were not

exposed to these hazards, and how about the ones exposed that did not

get sick? "



Then I thought of all the real people that have indeed suffered or died because of very real consequences in being exposed to none other than  Asbestos.  Whats next Dennis? No Holocaust?



Get real.  You don't have to "buy" into anything green, but billions of people have the right to their "religion".  Oh, and its definitely not  confined to only us Americans who need a so-called "Boogie Man".

bill_105

I agree

Just what radio shows is this coming from. Oh, the beauty of independant ideas!

Dennis

Please don't go there,

I firmly believe there was and will be another Holocaust unfortunately the next one will include a whole lot more people than 6 million. Google Prophet of Doom by Craig WinnBut I think you are getting out in left field, global warming is a hoax, there is no shortage of fuel. The planet is made out of biomass the techology to convert biomas is cheap, it can be turned into gas and alcohol. and it does not deplete a food source. The problem with biomass is anyone with a little mechanical knowledge can make there own fuel. That is no good as this fuel will not be able to be taxed, and that is what government is about. Here is a link to biomass gasification, after viewing the link tell me if you think there is a fuel shortage. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=110585530348764525#docid=-7043421693062331790



And just let's add this link, if you want some green gasoline as well.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=110585530348764525#docid=-887605816363933518

scott markle_2

belief

When you come to a subject with your mind made up it's hard to see past your own assumptions.



If I agreed we were sitting on oceans of easily recoverable oil and gas, and anthropogenic global warming was an international leftist conspiracy, then a $350 dollar piece of copper that can save 20% on DHW might not deserve much attention.

Dennis

Our salvation, from the problem of energy dependance,

and it is in this country. I was in short supply just a few years ago, but now we are finding it everywhere. It is the fuel of choice for reducing Green house gases.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_energy_shift



Now just a side comment, isn't it interesting just when solar, geothermal, and biomass fuels look like they are here forever, an existing fuel in short supply is now found in excess.



But like I said originally, a product that does not have an ROI will not be sustainable.

How many abandoned solar systems from the 1970's do you think there are? In my area there are hundreds. The first time they needed a major repair or for that manner continuing maintenance, the systems where let to rot.

Now if these folks saw a huge increase in their energy bills, they would have fixed and maintained these systems.



My original post was concerning this point, folks will abandon the Green Movement in a heart beat, when there is a cheaper alternative.



Now not to give you all fodder for accusing me of being a closed mind right wing wacko, but my points are valid. This device will never pay for itself in a reasonable time period (your life time). To truly save energy you must have an ROI or the product will not be sustainable and that is the basis for the Green movement is it not?



Not to argue the point anymore, but the Reinvestment Act in itself is not sustainable.

And that will spell an end to all of these rebates and tax credits, prices will soon be increasing, as well as will taxes. Those two factors are what killed the Green movement in the 1970's. The gas crisis was ended when the price of fuel doubled, the interest rate increased to near 20%, and inflation was out of control.



Get ready history is going to repeat itself, because we did not learn (or remember) our lessons from the 1970's.



I will tell you how I survived the recession that followed, learn to fix things, to practice true sustainability. Maybe those solar systems were abandoned because there were lots of installers but no service techs.

All of these complex systems being installed today will break at some point, if the techs are not there, these systems too will be abandoned.



Just my 2 cents, you will do what you always do, your mind may not be so open as you think.