tsp and skimming steam boiler

mike jones_2

the local paint store in new york city sells red devil tsp without the p, phosphate free.  can someone advise if this is safe to hot skim a new smith steam boiler with?



smith boilers tech guy wont take any responsibility, he will only say use what asme says, and asme says tsp which is still illegal. 



also, although the new install last year we found out was never skimmed, when we boil the water in a tin, it hardly foams at all, although it is very brown probly from rusty old pipes.  thus far we have only cold skimmed the boiler very slowly on 2 occassions.  the glass guage only bounces around 1/4 inch, and there is no water hammer.  however, the new air vents in this 1 pipe system fill with water in several radiators every week or 2 and prevent heat in those rooms until they are emptied.  all pipes are insulated.

nicholas bonham-carter

skimming additives

peerless specified arm & hammer washing soda for our first cleanning/skimming.  wouldn't smith have some advice on that subject? we added the washing soda, and then gently steamed for an hour or so. while adding a small amount of constant feed water, and cutting the burner off, finally we opened the skimming valve, which was piped over to the floor drain. this went on for a couple of hours, and seemed to do the trick by the 2nd repetition. some people like hot-skimming, others cold-skimming, we we had the best of both worlds.--nbc

Al Letellier_21

cleaning steamers

I use a great product called 8-WAY...no problem getting the stuff, does a great job cleaning and protecting the boiler, and leave the water purple for visual sighting of the water condition. Gets lighter in color as the water gets dirty....like liquid litmus paper. Give it a try.

mike jones_2

red devil ts-p for skimming

thanks, it sounds like any of these products will work, red devil- less the phosphates, 8way, or baking soda, which i think ace might carry, they call it a/h super baking soda there.  it is just dissapointing that smith won't comment past the illegal asme tsp.



if we use the baking soda, should we flush the boiler afterwards and just refill with clean water afterwards?



also, how does one know if a second skim/flush is required? thanks again.

BRIANJ

Skimming

The recommendation is for WASHING SODA not Baking Soda.

Two very different products.

DanHolohan

That's safe to use.

Just make sure you get it all out once you're done cleaning. It will make the water foam. 

mike jones_2

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3549579&CAWELAID=351933682

oops, sorry, meant super washing soda.  here is the ace link. 



[url=http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3549579&CAWELAID=351933682]http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3549579&CAWELAID=351933682



We pushed smith harder and now they say since asme recs tsp and caustic soda mix, smith is now saying it is ok to use just caustic soda alone, without any tsp mix.  but that is sold as drain opener, and it is getting hard to believe smith, when they claim to have no interest in going beyond an outdated asme. 

mike jones_2

radiator air vents filling with water

unfortunately the skimming did not help.  afterwards we put some water on a brown paper bag and it did not leave any oil stain.



is there a sign to check as to what can be causing this in most of our radiators.  Also, the top of the building seems to heat faster than the bottom which seems crazy. 



the glass guage only bounces around 1/4 inch, and there is no water

hammer.  however, the new air vents in this 1 pipe system fill with

water in several radiators every week or 2 and prevent heat in those

rooms until they are emptied.  all pipes are insulated.



thanks for any help solving this mystery, which did not get solved by the new boiler properly sized based on sq ft of rads as specified in the lost art.

john walsh_2

The water may be clean but is the piping OK?

What size are the risers going to the rads? Are the rads pitched ? What about near boiler piping is it done to specs? Water level in boiler OK? not to high?  Is the Pressure low? It sounds like either condensate is having trouble returning to the boiler or steam is finding it hard to get dry leaving the boiler. Piping and pressure have much to do with all that

mike jones_2

wet air vents

insulated 2.5in. above boiler piping leads to 2in risers and 1 1/4 branches to the rads.



had a steam pro here who confirmed above boiler piping is good, but i could post pics if u think that would help. 



rads are all pitched, if anything too much, and pressure is so lo it will not register on a new 0-5 guage, not even an ounce. 



boiler water is normal level, bounces about 1/4 inch.



am wondering if we should put smaller vents on the big radiators, but then we would have to run 1 hour cycles just to get them hot.



thanks for your input.

john walsh_2

wet rad vents

Yes Mike I would like to see some pictures. Another thought that I had was about the size of the boiler.  I know that you said that it's sized correctly just make sure that it's not over fired and make sure the rad valves are steam rad valves and fully open . 

mike jones_2

wet rad vents

wet rad vents

thanks, here is the attached pic - the top of the first pic shows the header leading to the 2 mains.



i do not think this is a counterflow system as both mains have dry returns at there ends which lead down to the 2 wet returns, 1 for each end of the building. 



we are checking on our firing rate and trying to confirm if ancient painted radiator supply valves are steam as well as the 2 or 3 home depot replacements - they do have wide bodies so they may in fact be steam rather than hot water valves.  they are all fully open. 



how does the piping look to you? smith is rediculously vague as to the above boiler piping on this 19a model and probably all there others.  not sure what smith tech is trying to hide behind, they should call themselves lo-tech.

john walsh_2

NO pictures

Don't see any pictures Mike . Is it me or did you put them up? More than likely the old steam valves are steam but be careful with the Home Depot valves. Are the vents on the  radiators with the HD valves worse or is the problem in all the vents of the house? I remember buying a few steam valves from HD a few years ago and afterward before installing them I realized that the internal space was diminished greatly so I didn't use them . They weren't hot water valves they were steam valves with a reduced opening. Don't know if it was a fluke or if all of their steam valves are like that.

John

mike jones_2

tsp-and-skimming-steam-boiler

sorry, re attaching pipe pics now, can't figure what went wrong.



btw, the problem is in almost every rad, but we are looking into new valves anyways now.  most have the 50 year old valves on them, and still have new vents filling with steam



Sorry, still trying to confirm how to upload this pic. will try again

Tombig_8

Near Boiler Piping

Well Mike it looks like time to break out the big wrenches again. There is no equalizer pipe that I see. If you still have the I&O manual for the boiler check out the page on boiler piping. Or check here page 18.

www.smithboiler.com/modules/lit_lib/download.asp?litFileID=878

With no equalizer you will be seriously pushing water up the mains. There's your problem with the vents.  Hard to believe you have such little sight glass action. I'd expect it to jumping. Look closely at the piping diagram. The boiler (lower) horizontal header needs to be pitched AWAY from the steam outlet, piped to the equalizer, and tied into the returns. Don't forget the Hartford Loop.

Notice with it piped correctly all boiler header, system header, and steam main (depending on the pitch) condensate will return to the boiler via the equalizer rather than the steam tap. More importantly the equalizer maintains equal pressure.at the supply and return taps which, without going into detail, isionEXACTLY why your boiler is throwing wet steam all the way to the radiator vents.

There's something else to consider. Check the "A" dimension. Waterline to system header dimension. Get Dan's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" at this site. You shouldn't be without it if you own and maintain a steam boiler.

Good luck

mike jones_2

equalizer leading to the hartford loop

i will have to post a better pic including the equalizer leading to the hartford loop.  the white painted pipe at the top left of this pic just below the 2 top mains leads to the equalizer, hidden in this pic behind the vent stack, which leads down to the hartford loop down low before the wet returns enter back to the boiler feed. 



i will add the better pic later today. 

Tombig_8

Pipe pitch and "A' dimension

With the equalizer that far up the steam piping check your pipe pitch carefully and ask yourself, "How much condensate is returning thru the steam tapping?" You may need to heighten the steam riser off the boiler to above the old header so all condensate runs down the equalizer. You're pushing water into the system and the near boiler piping is usually the culprit. 

john walsh_2

near boiler piping

I agree Mike that near boiler piping looks foul. Get some more pics up but from what I see there this is where the problem is coming from.

mike jones_2

tsp and skimming steam boiler

we attached the hartford loop picture which was hidden by the stack by the bottom of the equalizer route.

we had a well regarded steam guy from the site do some work here last year who said since the mains pitch down sightly to the wet returns 30 ft away at the end of each main the condensate from the rest of the building should not get back to the boiler thru the header.

i do see your point though about the equalizer piping having almost no pitch from the header.  is it possible there would be so much condensate just in the beginning of the header.  there is no banging in the pipes and the gauge glass only moves half inch

World Plumber

"A" Dimension

Is this boiler taller/higher than the one you took out? Is the water level in this boiler higher than the old boiler?

I can't see a whole lot in the pictures but it looks like you may be pushing the water back through the returns and blocking the steam flow. Make sure you pressure is the lowest possible. Do you have 30 inches from the water level to the lowest branch? How about your main vents are they working?

One of the best investments you can make is "The Steamy Deal" also get the vent sizing charts. If your piping can even come close to being right and the water isn't lifting up in the pipes. Then you need to take a big look at your main vents. An hour to get heat your spending to much time getting air out and if your trying to do it all with the radiator vents sometimes you can get water. Do yourself a favor and save yourself "A LOT" of money buy the books read the section on piping and get the laws of physics part right in your piping. Then work on your vents That can save you a lot of money. By getting the main vents right you can balance out the temperature in the house and cut a lot of time off your heating cycle. Saving big buck in your heating bills. OH Is you boiler over fired for the load?

mike jones_2

above boiler piping

yes, i believe it is taller and am trying to figure out how high the old water line was.  i think i see where u may be going - i shall get dan's book and confirm that i think you are going to say the top of the hartford loop must be ABOVE the waterline?



The boiler is sized for the sf of radiator sizes.  The pressure is so low it is not registering on our 0-5 psi guage which is new.  the mains are also the new real big gortons that are tall for venting, and they are quiet.  they take over 10 minutes to get real hot. from a cold start. i am checking the a dimension, but i recall it acheived smith's 24in size to the bottom of the pipe for the top header in the pic.

mike jones_2

equalizer piping

i do see  the equalizer piping having almost no



pitch from the header.  is it possible there would be condensate just in the beginning of the header.  there is no banging in



the pipes and the gauge glass only moves half inch



the mains pitch away from the boiler to the dry returns and down to the wet returns at the end of the mains







if the eq. pitch is the problem, i just want to also be sure that the

horizontal nipple at the top of the hartford loop can be several inches below

the water line, so that hopefully we don't need to have to have someone

re-pipe the whole shebang.