radiant heat pex noise...snap, crackle, pop--can't sleep--help!

Unknown

Greetings all,



I live in Eastern Pa. Turned on my new radiant heat about a month ago. It makes one heck of a racket in the walls, floors, and ceilings on heat up and cool down on all 3 floors of our new home. Snap, crackle, pop, random ticking, pings and knocks, and all over the room. Most noticeable at night when trying to sleep!



It is a professionally installed staple up system with foil bubble insulation, up against the subflooring, in a new house (2009) , first heating season. All wood floors above.



Pex was used with new oil burner. The installer tried to fix by lowering water temp, but noise still was there, and not enough heat left to satisfy requirements. He says there is no air in the system and the noise will go away over time....it has been a month..how much time do we need?



Any suggestions in getting the system to quiet down? Any expert consultants in eastern PA? Help!



Nick

Paul Pollets

Forensic repairs

Here's my 2Cents:

1. Remove the bubble foil and use aluminum transfer plates to wick the heat through the subfloor and lower required water temps. Make sure the weave pattern of the tubing layout is per manufacturer's spec.



2. Install R19 batts in the heated joists, with a 2" air space between the plates and the insulation.



3. Install a Tekmar mixing control with 4way mixing valve and motor actuator to provide the mixed temp to the RF heating circuit and protect the oil boiler from low temp return water. You'll damage the boiler in short order, if you don't.



4. An engineered heat loss calc can specify balancing, pump sizing, loop lengths, etc. Most pros use it.



5. Find the most experienced contractor that has a rep for fixing the hard stuff. It will be well worth it to be comfortable and noise-free.

Mark Eatherton

Welcome to the world of staple up...

The answers to your problem are NOT going to be inexpensive, nor easy.



PEX has an extremely high coefficient of expansion. It expands at a rate of 1.1" per hundred foot of tubing per 10 degree F rise. That means a 250 long circuit going from 70 to 160 degrees will GROW over 2 foot in length, and it is this increase in length that is binding against the staples used to hold it in place that are making it noisy.



Your options to abate the noise are;



1. Install a semi continuous circulation system with full outdoor reset. This will lessen the noises, but will not eliminate them. Or...



2. Install non electric thermostats in each room. It is doubtful that your piping/distribution system is conducive to this methodology, but if possible, it will only allow the flow necessary to satisfy the calls for heat. It should be used with item 1.



Lastly, you could rip down all the sheet rock in your home, and install a high quality extruded aluminum heat transmission plate that would eliminate the noise, and allow the system to operate much more efficiently.



As for insulation, the general rule of thumb is to have at least 2 times the R value below the floor as you have above the floor. The R value of the bubble/foil/bubble insulation is just slightly better than 1/2" of sheet rock. Fughetabout the "reflective" qualities. They work great in the lab, but in the field, they become covered with dust, and their spectral reflectivity drops to nothing.



Wish I had better news for you. Not sure how far you are from York PA, but if you can get Dave Yates of Behler P&H involved you WILL find resolution. It may not be cheap, but it will work as designed.



ME

tim smith

I am with Paul on this one.

Sounds like you will at least need to put outdoor reset and mixing valve on system. Calculate heat losses for all zones. Figure what the least temp you can get by with. Do not set back main areas at night. Should be ran pretty constant to reduce the heat up contraction and retraction noises. Extruded plates would be ideal but it may be a bit late for that. I hope you can get it to an acceptable level. Hate to see problems like this but it may be workable.  I hope it does not come to tear out sheetrock etc. Good luck. Tim

Rufus Laggren

To be clear for my own understanding:

The noise problem results from the tubing moving physically. IOW, it heats OK but because the tube changes size whenever it changes temperature, it rubs against stuff and makes noise. So the quick fix is to keep that tubing the same temperature all the time and not have it heat up and cool down and thus avoid having it change size and move around - and the constant flow with the outdoor reset accomplishes this as best as possible. Also not lowering the temp at night helps to reduce the tubing moment.



That the idea?





Rufus

Mark Eatherton

Requires significantly higher temperatures...

like as high as 180 degrees F, when it could be done with significantly lower temps, like 105 with WarmBoard...



One of these days, our government might get smart and outlaw it....





ME

SpeyFitter

Type of Pipe?

Out of curiousity, what type of Pex Pipe did you use for your staple up? Some manufacturers of O2 barrier pex use a membrane that goes on the outside of the pipe which in staple up applications can also become quite noisy - you'll hear squeaking noises as it expands/contracts (heats up/cools down). Many in here will point you in the direct of Wirsbo HePex for staple up applications as it seems to have an O2 barrier that is built into the pipe walls itself which reduces/eliminates this squeaking provided the staple up has provisions for the pipe to move a little bit (i.e. use radiant heat transfer plates instead of actual staples).

I hope an O2 barrier pex was at least used?

EricAune

Staples are not the cause, plates are not the fix

The noise you are hearing is, as others have said, the PEX rubbing against the floor surface or even the surface of the staples.  Heat it up it will grow.



Heat transfer plates (not extruded aluminum) often times cause even more noise if they are not installed properly.  I guess the "theory" would be that if the plates will allow lower h2o temps. then the tubing will not expand as much.  I totally agree, but it will expand anyways, it has no idea the rules of whether there are plates or not.



Expansion can be kept to a minimum if the the temperature of the pipe is consistent. Others are right on when they suggest constant circulating with ODR. 



I scrapped that whole idea of O2 barrier on the outside being the cause of all life's problems a million years ago.  The only disadvantage this process of manufacturing has posed over the others is its propensity to be more rigid and less friendly to work with.  The expansion rate is the same as the one with the barrier on the "inside". The barrier will just rub off in short time and can no longer be the source of the noise.  

Mark Eatherton

Eric...

You will note in my post that I pre-qualified the quality of the heat transmission plates. If you use the cheapo light aluminum flashing material, you will experience a noise known as "Oil Canning".



With a good quality, heavy duty plate, (think Radiant Engineering) the tube is so tightly bound, that it CAN'T expand laterally.



What do you think happens to tubing bound in concrete? Do you still think IT grows length wise?



ME

EricAune

Got it, saw it

 Just trying to show the difference. As far as the tubing in the concrete...everyone knows the floor is in a constant state of flux....you can't fool me silly.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

Sounds like

tugging on my ear(G). In order to unravel the Mystery of the Crackling PEX, a thorough investigative forensic radiant heat loss/design needs to be done as the foundation for any potential resolution. I've dome em before, I'll do em again & that's an unfortunate need brought on by installers who either have little to no experience or who carve away potential efficiency gains by striving to be the cheapest game in town. Radiant done well cannot be done by cost-cutting-corners.



Staple up & hardwood? Around Halloween? Scary.



I'm available for the consultation: e-mail dyatesatfwbehlerdotcom (sorry, but the botts don't need to see the @ and . in the address). Or by phone: 717-843-4920.

Mark Eatherton

Not trying to fool anybody...

Just want to make certain that you or anyone else reading this understands the dynamics at work here, not only for plastic tubing, but ALL tubing embedded in concrete.



The tubing is still being exposed to the potential growth, but it doesn't work laterally, so it sends the growth function into the diameter of the tubing, minimally decreasing the ID, but exerting the stress to the walls of the tubing. Hence, copper tubing imbedded in concrete gets stress cracks in its walls, due to this condition. Plastic is obviously much more forgiving...



ME

Unknown

thanks and here are some photos

Thanks everyone for your suggestions! Here are some requested photos.

I have short vids of the noise as well....

Unknown

this pic did not make it

one more pic

EricAune

Thats interesting

This is a topic that has been brought up a few times while stuck in traffic.  I would like to learn more.  Got any more info, anywhere this is published?  Maybe another new thread.  Thanks Mark. 

MarkPFalade

I wonder...

if the tube being in contact with the insulation is the root of the problem. Maybe remove it and lower it a bit to allow some space between it and the tube.

EricAune

going to have noises

This type of system comes with a caveat and you are experiencing it.

Paul Pollets

Tubing size, et al

The system does use a 4 way motorized mixing valve and it looks like you have the R2107 control. The tubing seems to be 5/8 or 3/4". Hard to tell from the pics.



Unfortunately, transfer plates are not made over 1/2". Are there radiant distribution manifolds or does each zone valve do a loop?



BTW, Dave Yates is certainly qualifed for the fix...

Nick74

Thanks---

Hi all, thanks so much for all your helpful comments!

I forgot to mention that we have 7 hot water zones in the house...3 on first floor, then 2 for 2nd, 2 for third.

We also hear the water climbing the walls to get to the upper floors, so maybe things are loose in there as well?

I am having a bit of a problem being able to log on an off this site, so in case I get locked out again...let me say a hearty thanks to everyone!!!

I am attempting to attach some short vids so you can hear what we hear...is it normal?  We don't mind some sounds, but random ticking and tapping, lasting for long repeating durations, 10 minutes or more, then repeating every 20 or so minutes of so is just too much.

Nick



Opps!  Looks like video files can not go...sorry

MarkPFalade

Reminds me of "Pete"...

Pete is a retired aeronautical engineer that is smarter than everybody. I did 1.5 houses for him. Unbeknownst to me he had an account at the same supplier I did and was checking prices on all the parts I was using. He had a real fit over the Wirsbo clamps being a bit pricey (as far as he was concerned) so on Job 2 I put the tube in the basement slab but then he "fired" me for the strap up part because he had found cheaper clamps and I refused to use anything but Wirsbo supplied materials. Saved himself a whole $0.11 per clamp which equated to about $200 tops on a decent sized job. I sincerely hope he has the noise issues too. It would serve him right.



On the bright side, he tried to hire my duct guy behind my back and my duct guy told him to go pound sand. He also went to my A/C supplier and tried to buy the equipment himself for the second house. He took the info on everything I put in on the first house and then went and tried to buy it all himself for the second one.  At the A/C supplier he ran into "Gregg", a rather large irritable gentleman who looked for all the world like Bam Bam Bigelow without the skullcap tattoo. He said, "Pete ***** ? I tossed his *** out of here." I said, "Thanks Gregg, you've made my day. ;-)



I often wondered how much money he "saved" himself on that one. He even went out, bought cabinets himself and expected the GC to reimburse him by deducting them from the contracted price for the whole build.  

Nick74

we would have spared no expense to get it right the first time

Gee, I hope you don't think we (the home owners)  were like Pete?

Actually if my heating contractor would have said that.." for $5,000.00 more I could give you a better, fuel saving, and silent system that would actually allow someone to sleep with the heat on"  ...I would have spared no expense and put it all on the mortgage...since the reason for this system was to make my wife more comfortable with an auto-immune condition she suffers from, this condition is aggravated by hot air and other types of  heating systems, and she needs plenty of rest...like a good night sleep without hearing the "war of the squirrels" in the floors walls and ceilings.

So we paid a huge heating upgrade (beyond our means) to get this...asked for the best system avail..best pex, best boiler, best oil tanks (2 Roth double lined) ...we just assumed we were getting the best install as well.

It has been on in most part of the house now for over a month now and no signs of "breaking in and quieting down" as promised. So we turn off the areas in the bedrooms at night and put on extra blankets...

Thanks---Nick

Mark Eatherton

Rediculous methodology...

From what I can see, they wrapped the bubble foil bubble AROUND the PEX, evidently thinking that it would act as a heat transfer agent. In my 30+ years of doing radiant floors, I have NEVER seen anything this silly.



This contractor obviously doesn't know what he is doing, because if he did, he wouldn't be doing it that way.



DIsgusting....



ME

CMadatMe

Control Strategy

is also a mess. The contractor used Buderus Control why didn't he plug in the FM241 Card to run a 3-way mixing valve (the boiler doesn't need protection) and then just use a real radiant manifold and actuators. It also seems he didn't use the controls built in priority. Why bother with the control?

Devan

My observation

and two cents.



The Noise is coming from the fact that multiple runs of tubing travels from joist to joist through one hole, making it a tight squeeze. Tubing rubing against other tubing and wood. He should have drilled two sets of holes, one for the supply one for the return runs.



The Buderus control is a requirement for the G125BE boiler , from Buderus.



Too bad about the foil bubble stuff. Nice boiler, cheaped out on the plates, and insulation.

MarkPFalade

No, in all my years,

I have never met anyone else like Pete, and thankfully so. It just struck me that my exact reason for not wanting to use anything other than mfg approved parts is akin to what you are dealing with now and I'm glad I stood my ground even though it cost me the loss of a fair amount of income. As most of us here already know, in this business it's the details that will kill you. One thing I did learn from the experience, now when people ask me if I will lower the price if they help I say, "No, it will go up.' ;-)



I have to agree with the others that said keeping the temp more consistent rather than it going up and down by a large margin is about the best answer you will come up with at this point in the game. Maybe circulate all the zones all the time and put the boiler on an outdoor reset.

Rufus Laggren

Lotsa tubes in small holes

like Devan said make for noise. Got yelled at long ago for running copper through small holes hard against wood and using hard two-hole clips - you can definitely hear the movement.



There may be some quick-dirty improvements available in the open basement area but whether they make sense depends on how you want to deal with the problem as a whole. If you're going to call in a contractor then don't touch stuff - go with the big picture and don't muddy the waters.



If you know you're going to live with what's there for 5 years or so, then you might want to try a couple things. Stand around when it starts to heat and identify the main perps. Then hit the bundle with a benign silicone spray lubricant - a strong dish soap solution might even work - and listen next cycle to see if in fact you can make a difference at that point.



 If you can reduce the noise significantly at the holes or other places (temporarily until the lube wears off) then you can think about fixing the ones you can reach easily. There are a couple things possible w/out too much expense. 1) If the noise point is not too far from the boiler you can drill new holes and then pop the tubes at the manifold and pull some back through new holes. 2) A good sawzall artist can enlarge those bundle- holes to reduce binding. Just make sure not to damage the joist too much and have some couplings handy for when/if you nick tube. 3) Or try stuffing padding around the tubes...



If the tube is sliding through the clip (strap) it's probably making noise there.  When there's a good loop each side of a clip (to take up expansion) you can either tighten the clip or replace it with a better on to prevent movement in the clip.



I'm a plumber not a heat tech but we see noise problems with some frequency





Rufus

furthur

still searching for peace...

The pex does move in the extruded plates.  I'm trying to quiet down my own system that I installed.  1/2" Wirsbo, in RHT plates stapled up...noisy.  With silicon between plates and pex...noisy.  With wirsbo joistrack plates, noisy.  I just went and watched the pex jump, lengthwise, in the plates, as the system turns on.  Constant circ. with reset?...I dunno if it will fit with the manifold layout I have, but extruded plates are not the "fix", though they are better than stamped plates.  Are they $ix time$ better?  No, maybe half as noisy as stamped plates.  Would silicone between the plates and tube be better?  I don't know where to go with this project.  Need to get it finished, sheet rock the ceiling, and move forward...



Just a do it yourselfer, trying to decypher the bs from the truth...it didn't work for me.

NRT_Rob

you can make noise in heavy plates

but much more commonly it's tubing on wood.



However if you can see tubing "jump" in the plates, you are probably using a pretty hot water temp. you shouldn't have to.



the real point to heavy plates is more output or lower temps. noise reduction happens, but you can't just forget about reset control, expansion loops, etc.



did you clip the pipe at the ends of the plates? that's a no no too.

zacmobile

properly controlled staple up...

...does not squeak. Utilize 3 or 4 way mixing on properly set outdoor reset and you won't have any problems. Our competition doesn't do this but have opted to use non-oxy pex instead,(they told me this personally) which works great as well if you don't mind replacing your boiler every 5 years. 

Michael_6

expansion

Yes pex will expand in concrete as in all situations. But the great heat transfer which draws the heat out readily minimizes expansion. Extruded aluminum does a great job at extracting the heat energy from tube like concrete does. Thin plates and especially staple up does not and you have massive expansion. That is why concrete ( lower levels) and Raupanel deliver such great output at verrry low water temps.

furthur

getting control

See, that's just it.  I went to great pains to make sure the pex didn't rub any wood, or other pex.  Only one or two clips to secure at some bends in routing, none near plates.  And honestly, it wasn't bad when first installed.  I think it got noisier over the winter, which brings up a point about control...



During the spring, with the huge southern exposure windows, the solar heating is huge, and house temps swing up to the mid 70's, or even higher during the day.  At night, of course, the heat eventually kicks on.  Without a slow ramp-up on water temp, no amount of reset is going to fix it.  So who's control do you run?  Just looking on-line, I like the looks of the Taco I-series, but don't know how to control it.



Pic is of my manifold, so far.  I'd have to cut it apart to install the three-way, but I think it's doable.



John

NRT_Rob

many options

first, your situation is worse when it is not insulated below.



Second, an indoor feedback control is best. A la teknet 4, so it can ramp up slowly even if it waits until long into the evening to start calling for heat. but that's not cheap.



without that, floor sensing can help. several thermostats can take floor sensors. that helps make sure your joist cavity doesn't get very cold in the meantime.



Regardless though if you are getting this kind of noise here there is an installation problem or your water temp is way too hot and even just basic outdoor reset would help a lot.... maybe you'd get one round of noise after a day of sun, but it wouldn't be normal after that, as the system would run much more continuously.



if any of your loop bends or corners have clips, remove those. the tubing must be able to move at any bends. that might help too. only secure straight runs. expansion loops are important too but maybe it's too late for that.

furthur

oh my head...

Discovered archived articles by John Siegenthaler at PM.  Where was this stuff when this system was just dreams of warm feet and domestic bliss?!  Glad this is still at the Pilot project stage, and I can make changes that will make it suitable for the rest of the house.  Still, makes me want to rip out my whole boiler room and start over (and there's $1500 worth of parts in there already!).  My stack of printed material is at 3/4" and growing...that's just stuff I want to study intently, mostly boiler room info.  Links to two relevant articles below.



Now thinking variable speed injection pump and three way valve...oh well, better return on investment than spending it on my snowmobile.  Any standalone zone controller that will let me set water temp ramp up?



http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000439597



http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000464133

furthur

pex-al-pex, so far, so good.

Outside temps are still pretty high, and water temps not fully ramped up, but just using pex-al-pex instead of hepex with aluminum plates has made a huge difference in start-up noise.  It can go from ambient to 130 deg. water without a discernible pop.  The pex-al-pex is more difficult to work with, as it LIKES to kink.  I had to watch almost every bend as we pulled loops...it takes more people.  It seems worth it in the end, though, and I'm glad I found a solution.  Seigenthaler nailed that one (using pex-al-pex for staple-up with plates).



John C.

NRT_Rob

no doubt.

Stinks to have to replace all your pipe. If you're using heavy plates (I think?) it shouldn't have been necessary though. I'd be pretty curious to know what it was that cause the issue in the first place.

furthur

my guess...

My estimation, Rob, is that it was the diff. expansion rates of pex and aluminum.  Like I said, i could WATCH the pex jump out of the plates.  The much lower rate of expansion of pex-al-pex must also contribute, it just doesn't expand nearly as much.  The runs are 24', 1/2" pex.  I did have wirsbo hepex with plates, both stamped and extruded, now running Mr. Pex pex-al-pex, the water temps are similar (120-150 deg. F).



I only changed out 600' of tubing (two loops), and, like I said, glad I had a chance to get it right before i put the lid on.  Just this week we poured 2" concrete over 1/2" hepex over 2" xps over existing below-grade slab for the rooms below  (leaves us 7'8" headroom) - the project proceeds, finally.

NRT_Rob

there is more to it

than just pex and plates. there are thousands of miles of hepex installed in both heavy and light plates that do not make noise. if expansion is properly accommodated and water temperature is variably controlled w/outdoor or indoor reset, noise should be minimal. If you're watching the tubing jump out of plates then it doesn't have anywhere to expand and/or you're running fixed temperatures.



I strongly suspect there is an improper installation detail at work here. PAP will solve almost all expansion issues in almost all cases, but it's not a requirement to avoid noise in joist systems typically.

furthur

improper installation details, maybe...but what?

My installation details look just like all the others I've seen on the web and elsewhere...not to say it's right.  Pex runs through 1 1/4" holes in TJI's, held by the split plastic "donut" clamps at each TJI penetration, at one end of the runs.  The pex then runs full length of each joist bay, held up by either stamped or extruded plates.  I only used a couple of talons, in areas far removed from the worst of the noise.  I used plastic split loom anywhere pex ran through wood that I couldn't use the split "donut" clamps.  The original installation was all stamped plates.  I tried pulling those down and using extruded plates for a large portion of one room, with little difference.  The final configuration for the PAP was to use extruded plates at room perimeters, stamped for interior areas.



Just seems like, hepex growing 1" per 100' per 10 deg.F. change...if my water temp is a low 110 deg, and ambient is 70, for a 25' run it still MUST grow 1".  If that expansion is shared evenly at each end, there must be 1/2" of expansion.  Even if you put an expansion loop every 4" (one for each extruded plate), the pex must expand .166" over that 4' length, which is ten times more than the aluminum.  There is just no way I can see that the plate can hang on to the pex that must grow 1/10" per plate, existing installations not withstanding.

NRT_Rob

and yet it does

please believe me when I say you are not the first to install hepex in plates. Also, I dork out on this stuff far more than most people would care to.



I suspect your split rings might be a problem if they hold the pipe tightly. typically the tubing must be able to move at both ends. a few fractions of an inch per plate is not typically enough to cause any major noise problems as long as the tubing can easily expand lengthwise. If it is prevented from doing this, then expansion transmits back up the pipe and it can "buck".



this means there should be:



1. room in the joist holes for the tubing to move.

2. no fasteners at all on the 180 bend "heads" and preferably none in any bend

3. any fasteners used should hold the tubing loosely, not tightly.

4. tubing overlaps itself on the joist end so it makes very wide sweeps there, outside of joist to outside of the next joist.



In those cases, you could still get noise if you run bang-bang, non-reset operation. Reset water temps then help ensure that whatever expansion you do have is gradual and minimal. As well as comfort and efficiency benefits.



Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and I'm not trying to beat you into saying you did a crappy job or anything. It's just that I used to work with hepex and I myself have designed hundreds of miles of noiseless (or so close that no one bothers to note the difference) hepex systems in both light and heavy plates... but they all use reset.



and if you're doing PAP that would solve just about anything... though, with no insulation, I have seen PAP make noises in plates too doing bang/bang operation... very wide temp swings in every cycle can do that. Heck, the plates alone can do that straining against staples in hard enough circumstances....



hope you enjoy the system however it ends up.

fdny895

My family and I stamp the reflective radiant heat transfer plates used to increase your BTUs, but way cheaper than the big company brands out there. We sell them for $40 for 50 feet.

pexplates.com

Thanks again for the work you do.

Dave Collado
845 248 9040
sales@pexplates.com

Gordy

We prefer tight fitting extruded, and omega style plates.

Just some product critique. Conduction is king when we talk about heat transfer. Loose fitting thin plates defeat a quality installation. Cheap price does not make up for an under performing installation.

Judging by the pictures on your website I dont see that quality in your plates. Thos IR photos are not from a plate install made by your company. May as well be beer cans.