Prestige Solo curiosity question,

Unknown

<em>on a straight-through</em>(not P/S,) is an air-scoop or air-separator (of any kind) really needed?



The HX is vertical, and its system outlet is right at the top, dropping straight down (at least 24") to the bottom connections. The (supplied) air-vent is at the top of this length,,, then the Smart indirect has its-own. 



Could we be installing something not really needed?



Just curious,,, :-),,,,,,,,,,,

Charlie from wmass

How else can you vent the air?

both spots can and do collect the off gas from the water used as a heat transfer medium.

Unknown

Right,,,,,

and they are vented-off from above,,, air bubbles rise,,,, did I misunderstand you somehow?

Charlie from wmass

not sure Dave

Maybe I missed your question. are you asking why have vents on both the boiler and water heater? the water heater is a tank in tank design so it needs the vent on the top. Is the boiler mounted below the indirect heater?

Charlie from wmass

the heat zones also have water that is off gassing

The scoop or even better a micro bubble separator catches that.

Unknown

No, No, Charlie,,,,,

the TT unit is highest,,, indirect below,, radiation below,,, NO P/S piping,,, pumping away from the HX & expansion-tank,,,, will the top air-vent at the Prestige not handle any system air?

Charlie from wmass

It might

But I would not bet on it. When all else fails what does the manual say to do? I just feel it is worth the few dollars to make sure. It micro bubble units will do what the units on the boiler will not do.

Mark Eatherton

Yeah, it probably would...

I don't remember who the manufacturer was (Peerless?), but one of them had an air separation tapping right on the casting of their boiler, and it work fantastic. No need for any other air eliminator.



Theoretically, the boiler would be the place where oxygen would have a high propensity to come put of solution. Lowest velocity, highest temperature and lowest mechanically induced pressure zone. All the ideals of air separation and elimination.



The manufacturer does show an air separator on their schematic drawings, but that could be out of habit and contractors expectations more than anything else.



2 B sure, I'd run it by the manufacturer just so as not to void any warranties.



ME

Charlie from wmass

The Weil Mclain cast iron have that tapping

The thing is 90 % of them I find are capped and a air scoop was installed. I find the scoop catches a lot more that the tapping does. We were die-hard Weilseparator fans for a spell. I think the tapping worked best when a joist hung expansion tank was used with it. I worry about giving the manufactures any loop holes with the condensing boilers so I will still install a seperator.

Unknown

weil mclain boiler

Weil McLain boilers also have the built in air scoop..

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I tried it.....

And it doesn't work....at least not on my installation.  The velocity in the piping it too high to allow it to rise to the top, so there is always air in the system.  Also, I was running very low temps (about 50F supply, 35 F return) with glycol, so that probably effects its effectiveness. 

What I wish they would do is make the pipe going up full size so it could be used as a supply.  That would allow air to escape the boiler easily, make installing mandatory Manual Reset LWCO's easier and make thier operation more reliable.



Boilerpro

Mark Eatherton

50 out, 35 back, what the heck were you doing?

Frost abatement below a drive in freezer?



Water tower freeze protection?



Oxygen does come out of suspension at higher temps for shore.



ME

EricAune

50 out...35 back

Classic case of Cryogenic re-tempering augmentationizer.  Seen it a hundred times.



Don't let these type of guys around your kids...next thing you know the money for the tooth fairy is gone and the neighbors daughter knocked up!  Son of a b.

Unknown

I underatand the W/M process,,

they contend a "paddle ore dam" will divert the air(perhaps it will),,,, but we`re talking mod-cons here with lower return temps.



I have a Solo 60 in my own house,,,, and a 49-100T1- I don`t think I really needed.,

EricAune

Dave,

Wouldn't a "pass through" device such as Taco 4900 or Spirovent (pick any type of course) be more effective in removal of out gasses than a the set up on the TT anyways? There are still places in this country that allow open systems where this would be the preferred device. The set-up on the TT better serves as removal of air in the heat exchanger, fluid velocity is too great for overall system removal (IMOP) (and experience).



I would bet the primary/secondary is listed in the manual to rid the manufacturer of problems with flow requirements being met thru the exchanger.  If Billy Bob pipes it that way they wont get the hour long tech. service call because the fluid is flashing.  Similar to why buffer tanks are being sold as partners to any new munchkin install I guess.



My 2 copper shiny's

NRT_Rob

they are not the same

microbubble air separators remove air no air vent can. I would very rarely consider an air vent adequate replacement. perhaps on very small systems.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Simpier than that.....

I had a guy that decided to have the boiler put in mid winter in a radiant floor heated shop.  Then he expected it to heat the building without the ceiling (ventilated attic) and with an aircraft hanger door with no weatherstipping and insulation.   He told me the insulation had notheing to do with whether the boiler could heat the building.  "Insulation only helps cut your fuel bills."  He insisted I put in a larger boiler....I told him to take a hike.  I picked up the boiler gave him part of his money back.  I found out later that the family is notorious for thinking themselves experts.    I figure life evened things out.  He probably paid a couple thousand for propane in just one month  when another guy working after hours put in a boiler more than twice as big.   Imagine feeding a 220,000 input propane boiler running nearly continuously.  HE HEE HEE!!!



Boilerpro

Mark Eatherton

Got it....

Some times, ya just gotta take a walk, cover your losses and move on down the road of life...



ME

TonyS

Did two this week

Both replacements, both pump through. One on a old gravity system and the other on a 4 zone convection system. Both jobs I reused the existing expansion tanks in the joist. The only modification was that I changed the normally supplied 3/4x1/2x3/4 brass t with a straight 3/4 brass t so I can run 3/4 tube to the tank fitting and put the 1/2 air vent in stock. The radiator system cleans up instantly and the convection system after a good purge cleans up in an hour or so. I have to laugh when I see micro bubble separators on radiator systems. 

TonyS

Take it off Dave

and try it with out the separator and let us know your results. I like to hear mechanics personal experiences as compared with bought and paid for mantras from manufacturers.  The job I just finished on a 1914 gravity system(2 1/2 inch mains) single zone, converted to oil,forced in the mid 50s, the perfect example of using pump through on the Prestige. It took me a half hour to explain to the customer why he didnt need Hydraulic separation. He had heard about it from another contractor who bid the job and told him he should have it,  obviously he loves big words but doesnt really understand when to use the device. Many of these devices today are not needed but because the manufacturer is paying for the information and the training and the advertising many mechanics just use them without ever using thier own brain. It reminds me of the Rid-x commercial for your septic tank, they advertise it in a way that makes people, unfamiliar with a septic tank think that they may have one and it needs to be maintained with rid-x, suttle advertising showing row homes with septic tanks in a cartoon like ad. This type of advertising works because many people that dont have septic tanks use rid-x. Plumbers see it all the time under the kitchen sink. I have ask a couple of customers why they use rid-x and they reply for my septic tank. It amazes them when I tell them they are sewer connected and dont have a septic tank.