Water coming out of newly replaced vent

juliachicago

Hello -

I have a large 17 fin steam radiator in my living room.  Recently, I went to change the vent (to a smaller size as the room was too hot) and had trouble removing it. So I left it and called my handyman. While I was waiting, the heat came on and water started coming out of the vent site (that I had broken while attempting to remove it).  So I turned the valve to off (trapping a lot of steam --> water in the radiator). When my handyman came over, he removed my old valve without issue and replaced it with my size 4. Now, it sounds like there is a small ocean in the radiator when the steam starts entering it. I can hear sloshing and the vent makes rhythmic puffing noises. Before the vent finally closes, water starts to come out of it, maybe a tablespoon total, dripping, over 5 minutes. The radiator is pitched correctly (perhaps it has sagged in the middle though). Oh, and it's a one-pipe system. Any ideas?

Julia

Unknown

Check the inlet valve.

Make sure the valve (that's the "tap" on the pipe going into your radiator) is fully open. It operating either full open or fully closed (preferably fully open)  If the valve is partially closed, the steam coming in and the water going out have to "crouch down" and collide with each other. 

What was the size number and make of the vent you were using before. What is the size number and make of the vent you are using now?

If you are having an overheating problem you may want to consider using a TRV. If you aren't  familiar with TRVs let me know and I'll send you some info. on them.

- Rod

juliachicago

It's open

Yes, the valve is wide open. The vent is a size 4 Dole (all of the other vents in my house are Dole too). Before this vent, and after the original (which I've thrown away and the make/number were painted over, but not the hole), I tried an adjustable vent. It made a racket, rattling and puffing away much worse than this one. So I am using this one as an alternative. My biggest concern is all of the water that I can hear inside the radiator, sloshing around and causing erratic movement of steam inside and exit of air (and some water). Before last week when I swapped out the vents, I never had this problem. Any ideas? Could all that water in there be causing the overheating too?



Thanks for all your help

- Julia

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Supply Valve...

The supply valve may have come apart inside so it is blocking the water flow or the new vent vents so quickly that the water cannot get out.  This second item is a common problem on big radiators.



Boilerpro

Unknown

Size 4 Dole

Hi Julia  -I'm not that familiar with Dole vents so i looked it up and apparently a size 4 is for venting mains. (See attached spec. sheet)  What you probably want to do is go with a vent with a smaller venting capacity like a Dole 1A or some other brand.

- Rod

juliachicago

Size 4

I've used this exact size 4 on my other radiators in the condo and haven't had any problem with excess heat or water in the radiator.



It seems that the problem of the radiator being filled with water started after I turned off the radiator valve while the radiator was on, trapping a whole bunch of water which has never seemed to drain out. Even though the valve is completely open, the radiator is appropriately pitched, and the vent is securely on, there is all this sloshing and puffing/leaking of the vent. Hmmm...

Unknown

Vent

Boiler Pro is a pretty sharp so I'd follow his advice. Just because it's easier to do I'd try a slower vent first. If that isn't satisfactory I'd crack the fitting attaching  the radiator to the valve and check the inside of the valve.  Over time valves corrode and as Boiler Pro mentioned, things may just have come loose.

- Rod

juliachicago

Thanks

Thanks so much. I'll get my handyman over to here to check out the valve situation.



Is there any reason that a size 4 on one radiator (biggest) would vent faster than the same vent on another (smaller) radiator?



This site is extremely helpful. I appreciate it.

Unknown

Dole # 4 vent

As I mentioned before I'm not all that familiar with Dole vents. The # 4 vent has a large fitting on the base of  3/4 Male pipe thread with 1/2 Female pipe thread inside that. The thread is quite large (See Drawing) and you'd have to have another fitting to reduce it to the 1/8 pipe thread on the radiator. They also come only "straight" and would need an elbow to remain vertical when attached to the radiator. Does your #4 vent look like the picture and have a large base? Are there any  numbers on the vent?

- Rod



Edit: For some reason the picture doesn't want to upload. Anyway the MPT (screw in ) base is about 1 inch across so that should make it easy to recognize.

juliachicago

Dole vent specs

I have the wrapper of the steam vent and it says: Dole 80-4 steam vent. 1/8" male angle steam vent.

The vent itself says Model 80.



I am trying to attach a little picture taken with my phone. Not sure if it'll come out.



The problem may reside in the valve ... and I'm going to have that checked out.



Thanks for all of the continued help. For some reason the leakiness and sloshing is better today, maybe my steam system has an immune system. Wouldn't that be nice!

Unknown

Vent

Okay-   the 80 -4 numbers makes more sense. The # 4 is huge compared to the 80-4. The 80-4 shouldn't leak water as it has a float shutoff. You might jkust blow through the vent as therte maybe some dirt on the vent seat.

  You might want to try a Dole 1A. which is an adjustable vent as that would give you more options for adjustment.  Having the valve looked at is a good idea. The improvement may be from the loose parts inside shifting (if that is in fact the problem)

- Rod

juliachicago

No obstruction

Update:



My handyman came over today to open up the valve to look for a blockage, and he didn't see anything obstructing. Also, strangely enough, the amount of water that came out of the radiator (when he opened the valve) was pretty minimal. This was surprising because it sounds like there are gallons of water sloshing around in the radiator as it heats. There is still some small water droplets that come out of the valve (I have since switched to a Maid O' Mist J (smaller) vent.



There is also pretty significant sizzling coming from the just below the handle on the valve. Steam may be escaping here making my apt very hot!



Any ideas? Thanks for your continued help!

nicholas bonham-carter

leaking packing nut

the topmost nut [the packing nut]  may need to be tightened, or repacked with graphite string. under that nut is the "bonnet" of the valve; which i find is easiest to remove, in order to check for a broken valve disk, trapping the excess condensate in.

have you checked your pressure lately, as high presssure can make the radiator feel a lot hotter.--nbc

jpf321

try repacking sizzling valve

with regards to your sizzling valve...you can have your handyman try to repack the valve .. there is a page and video about maintaining radiators here where they cover valve repacking http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/video/0,,1638785,00.html .. you should use "graphite valve packing" for the job. something like this .. http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-73232/Detail

juliachicago

Thanks

OK, I'll have him repack it, hopefully this helps. Could this leaky valve be causing the sloshy noise and/or the small bit of water that bubbles out of the vent?

juliachicago

And the sloshing continues...

Hello -



Update here. We tightened up the valve and there is no longer any steam/sizzling there. However, there is still a significant sloshing noise coming from the radiator as it fills with steam. The air leaves the vent in the rhythmic puffing noise in time with the rhythm of the sloshing waves. This water must be entering upon filling, and then draining with cooling because when we opened up the valve, minimal water came out. I am so confused. Also, there is still a tiny amount (drips) of water that come out the vent at the end of the cycle (this is the 4th vent that does this so I've ruled out this being a vent problem).



Any ideas what is causing this? It was fine last winter!



Julia

nicholas bonham-carter

rythmic puffing noise from vent

can you think of any changes to the piping, which have taken place since last winter? had the boiler had any service calls, which could have checked the pigtail for obstruction?

do you know what your system pressure is in ounces? the puffing could be due to sream trying to get by a pool of condensate in a low spot...or steam condensing in an uninsulated section of pipe.... or water being thrown up by bad water/piping from the boiler, and obstructing the main vents.

you can always put a good low-pressure gauge [gaugestore.com 0-3 psi] on your radiator vent, and then you will know how close you are to the ideal low pressure.--nbc

juliachicago

Continued ...

There haven't been any changes to the piping or boiler service calls since last winter.

The last time I checked the system pressure it was low (below 1, I think).



None of the other radiators puff or slosh, and this one puffs in exact rhythm with the sloshing noise inside the radiator. By the way, it's on the 3rd floor of a 6-unit (3 floor) old, brick building in Chicago.



This all started very recently, as described above. It hadn't been happening until I tried to change the vent and broke it while attempting to remove it (with a hammer, I know, a bad idea). And then, with every subsequent vent I put on (or my handyman put on), this continued. He's heard the sloshing and is puzzled too.



I need some kind of steam expert to come look/listen and hopefully figure it out. And ideas in the Chicago area?



Thanks for the continued help

Julia

STEAM DOCTOR

baseboard

hi. is this a baseboard radiator( baseboard is about ankle high as opposed to "standard" steam radiators which are knee to waist high). from my limited experience baseboard steam radiators seem to have the issues which you described (probably due to smaller internal size and smaller pipes). the one piece of advice that i can think of offhand would be a smaller vent on the radiator and bigger/better vents on the main. it is possible that the old vent was clogged effectively creating a smaller vent. best of luck



ps this problem seems to occer more often in radiators at the end of the line(furthest from the boiler)

juliachicago

standard

no, it's a standard radiator.



i have the smallest vent on it i could find.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Chicago.....

I just got back from Ravenswood a couple hours ago.  I do steam consulting in metro Chicago and was balancing out the heating in a condo building there. I may be back  over in Lincoln Park pretty soon, so I could swing by.  

 Most often the cause is not in the same room as the problem.  You may simply have a dirty boiler, a bad main vent, or some other issue in the basement.  I would try the smallest hole fitting  on that air vent for starters....I think its a 4.



Boilerpro

juliachicago

Yes please

Hi Boilerpro -



That would be great. How can I contact you to discuss fees, etc?

By the way, I have a size 4 on there now.



- Julia

juliachicago

Link

Oh, you posted a link. I'll call sometime next week to discuss. Thanks!

FJL

Similar Problem

I had a similar problem on a radiator in my apt.  The rad had been quiet this year and last and all of a sudden I was getting that sloshing sound.  My sound occurred after my wife had bumped into the low pressure gauge I had installed and kocked it off center. I fixed that and I don't see how that was the problem.  But what had happened right before the sloshing sound started was that I had let some water out of the boiler to drain out the dirty water.  I must have drained out too much at once b/c the boiler started to fill with water and that stirred up a lot of dirt and my boiler water got very dirty.  I drained some dirty water a day or so later, got the water cleaner, and my sloshing has stopped.  I'm attributing my problem to dirty water.  The only other potential cause was a defective valve, as someone else in this thread had mentioned.  My valve does rattle occasionally, but since I drained for dirty water that second time I have no more sloshing and no real rattling.



Here's what my gauge looks like:

DavidK_2

I'm no expert,

but this sounds like you might have wet steam leaving the boiler. The sloshing might sound like it is in the radiator, but it could also be in one of the nearly connected pipes.

As boilerpro, and easilyfound say - it could just be dirty water in the boiler. Or perhaps the boiler pressure is too high, or, perhaps the water level is too high.



Regarding overheating - have you insulated, sealed leaks, changed windows, or anything else that might have reduced heat loss from that room since last winter?

FJL

Wet Steam

Wet steam is a good diagnosis.  The water line increased in my boiler when it filled up the first time I emptied dirty water.  Also, some of the vents on my rads, including the rad in the bathroom, make a wet hissing sound when the boiler runs.  

juliachicago

Dirty Water

Every 3 days, one of the guys in my building drains the dirty water from the boiler, he's been doing it for years. But when I look in the gauge glass on the boiler, the water looks very rusty colored (is that bad?).  The boiler pressure is very low (it looks like it's below 1).  The water level in the gauge glass is about 2" from the bottom and 1" from the top.



If it is the dirty water that is the problem, why would only one radiator in the building have this problem? None of the other condo owners have this problem. Lucky me, lucky me.

FJL

Not Sure

I'm a home owner (co-op owner, actually) not a pro.  I don't know why one rad would be effected and others would not.  My building is four units on four stories.  Last winter, I had dirty, rusty water for a while but with frequent draining of dirty water, usually once a week, I was able to get the water in the gauge glass to be clear all the time.  Mind you, my boiler is only two years old.  I don't know if I'd be able to keep it that clear if it was older.  I think the water should fill between 1/3 and 1/2 of the gauge. 

Brian_74

Sounds ok to this HO

I, too, am just a homeowner, so take this with a grain of salt. Is this guy merely draining dirty water, or is actually blowing down the low-water cut-off? You're supposed to do that at least once a week, and it does involve draining some water, which will almost certainly be rusty.



The pressure should be below 1psi. Most of us (I think) are trying to get ours as low as possible.



The correct height for the water level should be found in the boiler manual.

juliachicago

Yup, it does seem right

He is draining out the extra water every 3 days (the last time was 12/3 -- he keeps a clipboard next to the boiler to document). There's a notation next to the water gauge and the height is correct.



So, I don't know what the problem is. The sloshing is bizarre.  The other radiators don't slosh, but some of them have some minor hammer (ticking really). And all are appropriately shimmed. Ugh, sick of this.

FJL

Blow Down

What is blowing down the low water cut off?  I simply open the valve handle on the low water cut off, which is pictured below.  I pull up the yellow handle and water drains out.  

Brian_74

Again, I'm just a HO

But here's what I do: while the boiler is firing (and after it's been firing for a bit), I open that valve. A bunch of hot, dirty water comes out, which cleans out the low water cut off. I also listen to make sure that the boiler stops firing at some point while the valve is open. It doesn't happen as soon as you open the valve but it should happen. This tests to make sure that the boiler would shut off if it were too low on water.



You're supposed to do this at least once a week during the heating season. It's important enough that I can understand why he is keeping a log.

FJL

While Boiler Is Firing

So I'm supposed to open the valve while the boiler is firing?  I usually wait for the boiler to cool down and do it while the boiler is not firing. 

Brian_74

Yes, while it's firing.

I double checked "We Got Steam Heat!" and I was right, you need to do the blow down while the boiler is firing. See p. 130. If you don't have the book, I'd all recommend it and the "Lost Art…" which you can buy from this site under the "shop" menu.

juliachicago

Water Gauge

When I look at the water gauge while the boiler is running, I see the water level moving up and down (by about an inch). Is that supposed to happen?

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Sounds like a bit much....

In most boilers the water moves up and down about 1/2 inch when everything is in order.  It almost sounds like either too much water is being drained or there is a large leak or many small leaks in the system that are causing excessive corrosion for the water to be that rusty.   Various chemical water treatments are available to greatly reduce or eliminate the corrosion.

That much "Bounce" in the water line could indicate improper boiler piping or contaminants floating on top of the water.   Both typically run up fuel bills and cause problems out in the system.  Contaminated water may be the problem with your radiator.



Boilerpro

juliachicago

Upon closer inspection

The water is actually nearly clear. What I was seeing as rusty was old residue on the glass an inch below the clear water.



However, could this problem really just affect one radiator in the system (of 30 radiators in 6 condos)?

Brian_74

You two communicating?

I was wondering, and now Boilerpro's suggestion that perhaps too much water is being drained makes me ask, are you and the guy who drains the boiler in communication? How many of you are doing things to the boiler? I'm just wondering if the problem is too many people acting with the best of intentions but ultimately causing a problem because no one knows what the others are doing. Just a thought.

juliachicago

only one cook in the kitchen

only one person is touching the boiler itself. i'm just looking at it and messing with my radiator.

DavidK_2

I think

that calling boilerpro is an excellent idea.

Steamhead

I'll second that

call Boilerpro.