Wildly varying estimates

mcsteamy

I realize this is sort of a taboo topic, but I'm at wits end trying to find someone competent to provide a proper estimate.  It seems like no one around my area has a clue when it comes to larger steam boilers.  I have estimates that vary about $50,000.00 from each other!   What _should_ this actually cost:



Existing boiler is about 35-40 years old.  Chimney is unlined and there is no combustion air to the boiler room.  Those items need repaired.  Things (claimed) to be (needed to be) done include:



*Remove existing boiler

*New 800k BTU IBR net output boiler plus associated equipment (LWCO, pump controller, aux LWCO) and assembly/install. 

*200 gal condensate tank plus pump, float, switches, etc.

*New header, Hartford Loop, piping, valves, etc.

*Permits, training, paperwork, etc. 



Boiler is in a basement with about a 36" door for stair access.  Elevator with ~32" door access is also available.  Chimney is 80' and needs I would assume a 16" liner.  System is single pipe air line. 



My estimate to date have all included a 2.7 million BTU input boiler ("because that's what is there") but that always seemed to be too much.  After calculating, it was.  Actual connected EDR is closer to 2800sqft, plus another 60k BTU hot water loop.  I figured 800k BTU IBR net is more than adequate.  *NO ONE* actually bothered to calculate this before estimating, which just blows my mind. 



I'm not asking anyone to go out on a limb, but I have to think that 120,000.00 is completely insane.  Even the 60000+ quote seems rather high.



Do we really need a condensate pump, or would it make sense to do gravity?  The boiler is at the lowest point in the building, and below the condensate tank.  I can clean up the system once we're past the boiler, and figure out those costs, but when it comes to what a boiler and install should cost, I'm clueless.  Has anyone done an 85' 16" chimney liner?  Is the cost that awful?  



FYI, the alternatives to getting the new boiler are yanking it out any going with a central steam plant, or ripping out the radiators and going forced air.  I think both are mistakes in the long run, and am doing all I can to figure out actual costs, because the contractors around here are almost no help at all, and/or clueless about larger steam installs.  Again, any help is really appreciated!  Thanks!

DanHolohan

Pricing.

We never discuss pricing here. You realize that, so please don't ask. None of us have seen this job, and we can't second-guess those who have seen it. Thanks for understanding.



My suggestion is that you contract for results. Which contractor will guarantee proper performance of the system when he's done? And what exactly is that guarantee.?

mcsteamy

True ...

Dan -- I understand the reluctance not to discuss pricing, but I'm just not sure how to deal with a situation where one guy claim $60,000 to do the job and another says twice that.  And then I find a bid sheet online for a public building 2 years ago with $25,000.00 quotes for the same size boiler.  This is just nuts.  The 100k+ quote I suspect was just scare-tactic pricing to try to scare us into the option that particular contractor was pushing.  It's like going into a car dealer and trying to get a car, and receiving prices of $10k, $20, and $40k for the same car. 



I have dealt with almost every contractor in town at this point, and the problem is that none of them understand steam heat, or what should be used in a particular install.  That probably sounds harsh, but based on what I've seen, its true.  They're just going to stick back in what is already there, without bother to determine if its appropriate.  There is no excuse for estimating a boiler that produces 7000sqft of steam when the system can only condense 3000sqft.



Basically, after dealing with all of these different contractors, I realize I'm probably stuck with having to design a whole steam heating installation, figure out what the necessary major parts are, discuss it with the code enforcement officials, figure out the parts cost, and then try to estimate the amount of labor that's required to do the job, pick the best quote, and then supervise the whole install to make sure it isn't screwed up.  I shouldn't have to do that.  The contractors should be doing that, but I haven't found one around here that I trust farther than I can throw him. 



Dan, you've created a dilemma.  Consumers who know more than many of the contractors trying to sell them systems.  Life was probably easier before you pointed out that many contractors don't understand steam, and then we as savvy consumers found out how "oh so true" that is. 



So who wants to give me a call to estimate a job 500 miles away?  I'll let you play with a nice air line system with its original functioning vacuum pump if you want to fly in. 

mcsteamy

I hope ...

... that doesn't sound like I'm calling anyone here incompetent.  I can here because you guys actually know what you're doing!  When I had a few problems with my own home a few years ago, the help I received was invaluable. 



I put in calls to three more contractors this afternoon, so I suppose I'll just have to wait and see what happens.  I'm just hoping the building can work through this so we don't do something stupid out of frustration. 

DanHolohan

Have you considered bringing in a consultant (not me)?

Get someone with steam knowledge to diagnose what you need, lay out the whole thing, and draw up a set of specs for you. From there, the locals can bid, based on those specs. I think that would be a wise investment.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

it's madenlingly frustrating on our end too!

Two bids back today & we did not get the work. I'm ok with that, but it pains me to see what others are leaving on the table. It wasn't steam, but.....



Three row-house floors of twisting/turning BB hot water heat, install a modcon and demo the three floors of botched hydronics - specs say none can be reused + wall/ceiling patching must be included. If I remove all of the materials - at cost (with tax), they have just $3K left for labor with no job profits. Specs state all piping must be copper too.



Where are you located? Lots of pros here that don't get listed (their loss IMHO), but who may be lurking.



 

Dan_65

Maddening

I know what you are saying, I lost 4 boiler jobs just this week alone. I lost one to a retired plumber. How do I compete with someone who is retired? I bid the job for two steam boiler replacements, a new p.v. water heater and adding a p.v. to an existing water heater and lost the job to someone who can/wants to work for $200.00/day. It is very frustrating

Steamhead

Where are you located?

I'm in Baltimore but will travel to consult on steam. Contact me off-list if you're interested. 

nicholas bonham-carter

big boiler replacement

what is your location? i suggest you double-figure the edr, and choose a boiler of that capacity sold by a stocking distributor in your area.  specify the installation piping instructions are to be followed exactly as a minimum. a gravity return system is always better. it sounds like your building is mainly vertical which suits gravity just fine. a reservoir tank can always be added later if needed, and consumes no power. specify  a 0-16 oz vaporstat with a 0-15 oz wica gauge [gaugestore.com], and plenty of main line venting [with check valves on the end of the return [as vacuum breakers]  to avoid the whistling vent syndrome]. naturally someone will have to insulate the mains, after a trial-run period. pipe the make-up water feed well up into the wet return piping to reduce thermal shock every month, when you "top it up".

will you need hot water later, so take that into account, will not require a separate flue for stand alone water heaters.

also consider the possibility of 2 boilers whose combined edr adds up to your radiation load. both could fire together, to warm the pipes, then the larger of the 2  would continue to maintain the steam pressure. also to consider would be the temperature control system.

you can find the dimensions of most manufacturers boiler  parts on line, and see if they will fit in the elevator.

[url=http://www.copperfield.com/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fasp%2ffaq.aspx]http://www.copperfield.com/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fasp%2ffaq.aspx

flue liner-sized on boiler capacity, may need separation from separate hot water heaters flues.

once you have these specs together, everyone can bid from the same page.--nbc

tim smith

Re liner etc

You will only need 10 or 12" liner for that kind of btu and vertical rise. Also 2 boilers would be nice setup for efficiency and redundancy. Good luck

DanHolohan

Two boilers

I don't believe you can run two steam boilers successfully without a boiler-feed pump and motorized valves on the return line of each boiler (or a duplex feed pump) You'll flood the boiler that's off without the pump on the return. Also, if each boiler is sized to half the total EDR of the system, the one boiler won't have enough to satisfy the load because the pick-up factor typically represents one-third of the total, not one-half.

mcsteamy

That is ...

almost exactly what I was thinking, with the exception of doubling the EDR and the venting.  We're vacuum, so when operating properly, there is no air to push out of the way.  We can suck it out (in theory).  For EDR, I was figuring in a maximum pickup factor of about 20% to account for any pipe "losses" in the basement or elsewhere.  Much of the pipework is exposed to heated spaces, so the piping losses aren't that dramatic. 



The system originally was installed with a vaporstat, but someone tore that off over the years and cranked the pressure to 8 pounds, probably after replacing some of the return air lines with copper that wasn't sloped to drain, and then plugged after the traps went bad.  So hey, why not just jack up the boiler pressure to blow the air lines out! But I digress ...



Redundant systems would be great, but I don't think it's in the budget, unfortunately. 

mcsteamy

Hmmmm...

If I could convince the building owners to do that, I would.  If we decide to go with the new boiler, I'm certainly going to recommend it.  If it would spare the installation of thousands of dollars of useless crap, it would be well worth it. 



Now that we have the forced air heat quote in, I think I will make better headway.  Our other option is connection to the local steam district.  That has a 20-30k quoted inside install cost, PLUS about 7k to 8k more per year in operating costs.   However, compared to a 100k+ boiler quote, it "sounds" cheap.

mcsteamy

Thanks Tim,

That's a big help to know that.  I saw the spec sheets usually assume a 20 foot chimney.  Since we're much higher, it sounds like that might reduce the required size. That liner could be a huge cost, and a size reduction would be great.  I'll give the manufacturers a call.  

DanHolohan

If I were you,

I'd bring Steamhead in on this. He's doesn't cost; he pays. It gets no better than him. 

nicholas bonham-carter

chimney liner not needed in some cases

in our neck of the woods, replacing the boiler sections, can be done without modification to the chimney. i am not sure about combustion air. that at least would save that part of the job for later, and help with the cash flow.--nbc

nicholas bonham-carter

tag-team boilers

i see in the book for my boiler, that the diagram for piping 2 boilers shows valves on the returns, and header separating both boilers, but i don't see why that is needed.

wouldn't the inactive boiler maintain the same waterline as the active one? the steam pressure from the active one would press down on both waterlines equally, by virtue of being connected [A]. through the common header piping, and through the common return. in that way it seems the same as my reservoir tank, with pressure balanced top and bottom.--nbc

DanHolohan

When steam travels it loses pressure

One ounce of pressure is equal to 1-3/4" of water column. The boiler that's off will always be under less pressure than the boiler that's on, so the water flows from the on boiler to the off boiler through the common return. The on boiler then cuts off on low-water. The feeder comes on and floods both boilers.



Also, the off boiler acts as a condenser to the steam and that also moves water from one to the other. This is such a common thing that ASHRAE explains how to use spill traps to keep the levels where they should be, but those spill traps spill to a boiler-feed pump's receiver.