Now I see why the Grundfos person posted the video on You Tube.........

STEVEusaPA

to Mr Yates...

That was a fantastic article.  Research and data logging done better then almost any manufacturer, and a great read to boot.  That's way better then...."buy my product, you'll save 'x' percent.  I'm constantly experimenting on my system (an unhealthy obsession as my wife puts it), and I think I found a new spring project, with my 9 circs.  Thanks

Mark Eatherton

Sheesh...

I feel like a Spring chicken :-)



I am VERY familiar with the cave with which you speak. Have been to numerous parties there. Am also aware of another cave that my grandfather introduced me to (he worked for the WPA program that built the amphitheater) on the face of the big rock to the left of the amphitheater. It used to serve as a "Special Guest Only" spectators box back in the day, and you have to know where and how to go to get there. It too is quite chlosterphobic access.



See the attached article, and if you look above the head of the woman in the picture, you can see where the cave actually comes out, I was there when Jethro Tull played, and the DPD decided it was necessary to use tear gas on the concert goers because of gate crashers. Got a snoot full up in that cave...



http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18878459



They now post guards at the caves entrance to make sure that no one gets into the cave. Great vantage point for a pop bottle rocket war :-)



It is (and has been forever) illegal to climb on these rock formations, but people ignore the warnings all the time. Note that a recent rock fall is believed to have been caused by people climbing on the rocks during a concert.



ME

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

annual percentage rates

Rob,



A number of years ago, I researched those stats on the DOE web site and (at that time) the graphs indicated a bit more than 7% average over a lengthy time-frame & I chose 5% to be a bit more conservative. With deregulation pending, our Governor pronounced we would see an 80% increase from 11.4-cents to 20.6-cents per kWh. Within months, the projections fell off to 40% and so on until no one was willing to provide us with a projection from the Governor's office. Our local rep pried it out of the Gov's office for me prior to writing that article and I trimmed it even lower thinking I'd be on solid ground. Akin to playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey! During our mandated training for a PA assistance homeowner loan program, we were shown electric utility rate increases for other states and several exceeded 100%.



Then came the marcellus shale nat gas bounty and that's (according to the elec utility co) kept our rate post-deregulation to 12-cents per kWh. Also bear in mind that when they were promoting the construction of Three Mile Island, we were told electricity would be too cheap to meter.   



Granted, we're taking crystal-ball shots-in-the-dark, but the reality is the costs are going to steadily rise and not fall. Electric utility co's have fallen way behind by not building more power-plants while deman and populations expanded. Lucky for them that increased appliance efficiencies have provided some slack with total demand in decline for many areas. What happens when the decade of purchasing the Energy Star appliances is past? Demand will rise and do so at a steep pace (I think) & with deregulation, the brakes are off for dramatic rate increases. Time will tell if the past Gov was right about the increases.



The nice thing about the ECV & ROI is that when utilizing an excel spread sheet 'live' with customers to illustrate the percentage of their choice, they get to buy-into the process, It's easy to change the annual percentage in the base-cell, which can be copied and pasted to cascade through the rest to deliver results. ROI is linked to the ECV cells results, so that goes along for the ride.  

meatball

WHA: Massive Savings

Hey, i worked on a project at WHA last December. cookie cutter campus of two family houses that were "energy" upgraded in 2009. Major pumps failures that the competition took care of for a while.

We provided pumps with ECM motors to the boiler room of Building A, and left Building B as is with the PCS motors.

Two houses were both occupied with families of the same count and each boiler room was separately metered so the Housing Authority could easily show savings off of their NSTAR bills (an independent third party? I'd say yes)



Anyway, we installed the ECM motors v the PCS motors for the month of January, February and March 2011.



Building B (PCS motor house) had an electric bill of: $167, 175, 153 respectively.

Building A (ECM Motor House) had electric bill of: $16.50, 19.32, and $15.20 respectively.



I dont think NSTAR bills could be tampered with that much. (and i have copies of these bills to prove this)



Thats energy saving the ECM Motor way.

meatball

WHA: Massive Savings

Hey, i worked on a project at WHA last December. cookie cutter campus of two family houses that were "energy" upgraded in 2009. Major pumps failures that the competition took care of for a while.

We provided pumps with ECM motors to the boiler room of Building A, and left Building B as is with the PCS motors.

Two houses were both occupied with families of the same count and each boiler room was separately metered so the Housing Authority could easily show savings off of their NSTAR bills (an independent third party? I'd say yes)



Anyway, we installed the ECM motors v the PCS motors for the month of January, February and March 2011.



Building B (PCS motor house) had an electric bill of: $167, 175, 153 respectively.

Building A (ECM Motor House) had electric bill of: $16.50, 19.32, and $15.20 respectively.



I dont think NSTAR bills could be tampered with that much. (and i have copies of these bills to prove this)



Thats energy saving the ECM Motor way.

Unknown

THIS MAY CHANGE A LOT

I am writing this, as I am now dumbfounded about what I learned over the weekend.  You are not going to believe this, and it will likely make you laugh.



It has been cold for a while here in Chicago area, and I turned on my boiler weeks ago.  When I did, I found that two of the upstairs bedrooms, a 3 gallon baseboard zone did not deliver heat.  The other two zones were working fine.  I assumed something happened with my Taco 570-2 valve, and that it failed, somehow.  I put two other heads (that I had lying around) on the body, and nothing.   I checked for 24 volts, yes.  Did the head warm, yes.  Pulled the head and pushed the spring in, yes.  Pulled the lever to open the valve, but nothing happened.  The ALPHA pump did nothing.  I put in a whole new Taco valve, but still nothing.  This dumbfounded me. 



I, now, noticed that the ALPHA was flashing between 6 watts and 0 GPM.  That was strange, as when it was idle, it always flashed between 5 watts and 0 GPM.  I turned my attention to the pump.  For whatever reason, it did not see that one valve when it was open.  Therefore, no heat.  Something is going on with the pump.  The pump was connected all summer, so I assume it did its periodic exercise, but the computer inside of it apparently failed.



Rob at NRT is great at what he does, and we have had a number of discussions about Modcons v. Cast Iron.  One more time, technology has proven my point.  Not only did technology fail, but it made it harder to get to the bottom of the problem. My home has a 94,000 BTU loss, and I am going to replace my boiler with two 50,000 or so IBR rated, 80%, cast iron boilers and a buffer tank (a gas valve, a high-limit switch, a Honeywell L4006, and a standing pilot).  I am sorry, I am not going to spend twice as much for something that will only last half as long.



It is interesting that both Burnham and Weil are coming back to cast iron boilers, but they are they are also computer hybrids, again doomed.  Weil has a video on their website that states, "while we can't guarantee that you will receive 30 years of life, our products' history speaks for itself."   Personally, I expect a Weil boiler to last 40 years.  I imagine that their stainless secondary heat exchanger will be dripping in 5-15 years, and any computer parts will have a limited lifespan.  I just don't see a 1% failure rate in 100,000 hours for these parts.  I think people make up these numbers.  When did you last have a harddrive last that long?



Does anyone want a one year old used pump? 

Unknown

And,

That is my 35 year old Weil boiler sitting next to the paint cans.  You can't see all the rust at the bottom of this baby, but it sat on open ground for the first 25 years of its life.  I am thinking of picking it up and moving it to the front of the house to run the 70 gallon 6 radiator system, and buy a 38,000 IBR rated for my two small zones.  This is where the buffer would then go.

NRT_Rob

rule number one

when in doubt, reboot. did you power cycle the pump? We did see a "hiccup" on the one in our shop once, kind of like you mention, but it went away with a power cycle.



we use relays just like with regular pumps and have seen no such issues in the field... even if it's happening, apparently as soon as it loses that heat demand it restarts and the problem would go away.. I have no idea how many alphas we have out there now. a hundred, I imagine, at least. No issues like that last year from our clients in the field: we'll see this winter, but I don't expect to see any major issues this time either.



In fact, the GPM readout on the pump allowed me to troubleshoot two systems last spring much faster than I would have otherwise... had some bad flow meters, and the pump was right.



but if you're just doing constant demand, I could see this being a bigger issue.



edit: you can say what you like about technology as well, but we have brains on nearly every system we've done for the last 15 years... thousands... with abysmally small failure rates. lightning strikes have been the biggest issue and a surge protector/UPS would fix that. Meanwhile, those brains have saved those clients many times the cost of the controls and labor in fuel and maintenance reduction... and delivered superior comfort to boot. You have to look at the whole picture, not just the downside.



I think the benefits of cycling control, post purges and outdoor reset are pretty much proven at this point. You can choose not to incorporate them if you want, but energy isn't getting any cheaper, and if you have to buy a boiler every 15 years now instead of every 30 you can STILL save significantly more than the cost of the boiler in that time with better tech. that will only become more true in the NEXT 15 years.

Unknown

Power cycle, as in....

unplugging the pump?  Not only did I do that, but earlier on, I connected the power lead from the prior pump, and ran it to an electric outlet next to the boiler.  I plugged the ALPHA into that outlet, and it still did nothing (AUTO MODE). 



 It works in a constant speed mode, however.



Thanks,

Unknown

Cycling control?

That is what the buffer tank is there for.  I can still do the ODR, though.

NRT_Rob

interesting

we only do constant pressure modes, maybe that's why we don't see it. I think autoadapt is garbage for any system with reset.



buffer tanks are low tech cycling control, sure. now you still have ODR and purge control... and viola, it's tech time

Unknown

Until H*ll freezes over....

or I see a quality system that will save 20%-30% or more actually running in a relatively uninsulated home like mine, I don't want high tech.  I am talking about seeing something running in a home, like mine, for $1,200 in annual gas bills.  And,  showing me a new system that "saved the owner 25% is meaningless.   My bill was $1,800 last year, so it would take a savings of about $400-600 each year to pay for all of the visits from the repairman each year. 

$9-1,200 for a stainless heat exchanger?

$7-900 for a computer module?

$150 for an ALPHA?

Now add another $150-400 for labor on each.

And replacing the system twice as often at twice the cost  just is of no interest.  I have had a 50 year old Weill and now a 35 year old Weil, and until this ALPHA did not work properly,  I have had zero problems in 21 years.  Having said that, I now take back my first statement above.  It just is not worth having no heat, for any length of time.  No Modcons

Rob, maybe you would like to do a 40 year projection on the cost of an 80% vs. Modcon including installation(s), maintenance and gas usage.

NRT_Rob

20-30% is easy

cast iron on an indirect is about 30% efficient in the summer on DHW demands. Post purge control can double that. that and outdoor reset control are both built into a $300-$400 boiler control. one season or less in payback, easy, and better comfort in the winter to boot.



modcon can easily beat atmostpheric cast iron by 20%+ all winter, probably more. AFUE doesn't pay attention to that makeup air loss.



I had a weil mclain cast iron unit in my basement when I moved into my house. 12 years old, it died in the middle of winter the day before I was going on vacation for week, during the coldest snap of the season. Cast iron is not a guarantee of 40 year lifespans, and it sure as heck is not the economical choice moving forward, no matter how you want to stack the deck.



simple, yes. Fireplaces are simple too. Can't lock out on a power failure either. Course, they are about 10% efficient on a good day, but hey, let's not quibble



Of course if your home is not insulated well, that's the first thing you should be dealing with anyway. boiler selection is a distant second at that point.

Unknown

I see you have a Triangle Tube boiler (it seems)

I have $5,000 in wall paper in three rooms, which means that I can only knock off 10,000 btus on my demand of a  94,000, and foam insulation would cost about $2400  to save those 10,000 btus.  It doesn't excite me.



When were the first ones installed and how has the maintenance been?

NRT_Rob

I love the solo

but I have an Ultra. Have had it for about 5 years, get 1 yearly cleaning for about $100 done. No other problems beyond power outage lockouts which are, admittedly, annoying.



Most of my clients who get solos though are very, very happy with the selection. Very few issues to report.



If you have a 94k demand I suspect spray foam would do a LOT more than 10kBTU of reduction if you used it. Unless you live in a 5,000 square foot house?

Unknown

2,300 SQUARE FEET

and we use about 4 rooms + two bathrooms only on a regular basis.  40% of the house has R-13 fiberglass, in who knows what shape.  This leaves only 3 rooms that I could foam.  I checked my demand in those rooms, and that is the 10,000.  I have over 600 sf of window area in the house, and that is close to half my heat loss.



When you get a "lockout," can you reset the boiler or do you have to call someone to do it?   What is involved to get the boiler going again?

NRT_Rob

you're still heating the rest of that space

though it may be a lower temp, you're still bleeding heat in here.



lockout requires hitting a reset button. nothing more than that, but still it's stupid... the unit should be smart enough to reset itself after a power outage. that's a major concern here in rural maine where power outages are common... imagine I was on vacation at the time!



I'm not saying tech is *without* issues. just that it's normally worth it.

Jean-David Beyer

I have an Ultra 3, and I get frequent power failures.

I do not get lockouts on power failure, and I do not have a UPS hooked up to the unit. Some power failures are only a second or two; during the hurricane, I lost power for 215 seconds. The boiler was powered on (indirect hot water heater), but was probably not firing. Sometimes the power goes off for an hour or more.



I infer from the age of your boiler that yours is an Ultra 2 that had a different control board (PhD) from mine (U-Control). Could that be the difference?

NRT_Rob

perhaps

the lockout is power failure while operating. My reset curve is very aggressive and so it's almost always operating. but if they fixed that with a later control, GREAT!!!!!! I do have the older control.

Unknown

RESET

I would find a way to monitor it online.  I know there are home management tools that allow you to monitor you temperature at home while online.  You just need a way to push the button, now.

Jean-David Beyer

I do not remember if the power ever failed when running.

I, too, have a very aggressive reset curve. For my downstairs zone, radiant slab at grade, it can run up to 18 hours straight, though 12 hours is more likely. I would guess, but do not know, that the power may have failed for a few seconds while running. I will try to notice when the heating season gets started. Well it started yesterday and ran my upstairs zone for a little while (under an hour), and my downstairs zone ran for 53 minutes today. It is 66F outside right now and the thermostats are set for 69%. But it went down to 48F the last two nights. The first night, the downstairs zone did not run at all.



I get most of my power failures in the summer. Sometimes because power company cannot keep up with the air conditioners. Sometimes from rainstorms and wind. Often because numbskull drivers drive into a particular power pole about a block from here.  In the winter, they skid into the same power pole. NJ drivers for you. And Ice on the wires. I have not figured out how much a UPS would cost that would run my system for a while. Probably over $1000. It could have to drive 3 TACO 007 circulators, a relay box, and the boiler itself. Perhaps 750 watts. I wonder how long to make it go? An hour? 3 hours? ...

archibald tuttle

WHAt massive savings?

I'm not sure I can buy this because i have 6, count them 6, PSC circulators running on my system including 1 24/7 on my floor radiant loop, I as the primary boiler loop that runs when any zone is calling, 3 heat zones and domestic hw zone, , and I can't generate an electric bill of $175 a month in my highest month including electric cooking, and everything else in my house. And I'm in RI with some of the highest rates in the country.



What size houses are these and what is the system description?

davidd

DAVE YATES: great research, two questions

That really was a great bit of research you did. Thanks for sharing the results. I work in the computer industry and am a big fan of empirical evidence when troubleshooting, comparing different options, etc.



I do have a couple questions:



1) Am I correct that your electricity usage comparison tables were derived by comparing fixed speed, on/off style circulators vs variable speed ECM circulators? I'd be curious to see a comparison to variable speed induction motor circulators. My guess is that the savings wouldn't be as impressive, as the savings are not just coming from the type of motor, but also the fact that the new circulators were varying their speed, thus varying their power usage.



Likewise, the design of the system is different (zone valves in place of many of the pumps), so that isn't a savings of ECM vs induction, but a savings of pumps vs valves.



Please correct me if I'm wrong above. The reason I'm bringing up these points is because I'm trying to decide on a design for a new system for my house. I have no axe to grind about brands or technology differences. I simply want to provide the most efficient and reliable system I can at this point in time (taking gas and electric savings into account).



2) You originally used pumps in all zones, but I didn't see it mentioned if you have mixing valves in all zones, or one mixing valve shared for all the low heat emitters. I'm asking, because I'm wondering, aside from electricity usage, whether comfort might be suffering vs providing a variable speed delta T circulator for each zone and/or a separate mixing valve for each zone to account for zone differences.



In my future system, just about every zone is unique (different heat loss, different floor coverings, etc.), so I'm debating comfort vs gas/electric/equipment savings in a design like yours. If all your zones are ceramic tile and all have the same height ceilings and all have the same outside exposure and are all the same loop length, then maybe this wasn't a consideration for you. If you do have zone differences, do you feel that you are compromising some comfort for reduced electricity usage?



Thanks!

David

Unknown

80% v modcon

Rob, you had me thinking there, but here is the answer for me, having 7 enormous radiators in one zone plus two baseboard zones.....taken directly from the Burnham website.....(CLICK ON  ONE OF THE ATTACHMENTS)



AND....... Honeywell has the L4006A for the buffer tank.  Can this be used with an ODR?  Or else, is there a buffer tank control that has both an adjustable lo-hi limit plus ODR?

Unknown

mixing valve

I see that Taco is selling a 2 & 3 & 4-way mixing valve that does an outdoor reset, in addition to setpoint.  The 4-way goes to 1-1/4" pipe which would work with the manifold I want to use. 



Anyone use these on a project have any thoughts?