steam heat obnoxious whistle

whistle_whiner

i live in an old apartment building with steam heat.  the mgmt company turned the heat on last week and sent some maintenance men around to "check everyone's radiators out"... whatever that means.  i'm not complaining about the hissing, the gurgling, the ridiculous extremes of temperatures.  i'm a grad student and spend a fair amount of time locked in my apt attempting to study.  i cannot take the high-pitched, loud, long whistle emanating from all of the radiators.  i tried complaining about this last year, but was told it was "normal" by my building manager.  i ended up wearing earplugs and spending a lot of time at the library.  this year i ended up googling it and read some articles which lead me to believe this whistling means something's not right.  is that true?  is it something that could be fixed?  was my building manager just blowing me off?  i know that there is a legal doctrine called the implied covenant of quiet enjoyment, which basically means i am entitled, as a renter, to the quiet enjoyment of my apartment.  this whistling is certainly not quiet, and it is certainly not helping me to enjoy my apartment.  any thoughts on suggestions i could give my building manager re: fixing this problem?  thanks to anyone who can help!!!

Unknown

Whistle

 Hi - It would be a big help if you could  post a picture of the radiator that is bothering you. We need to see the piping and the type of vent attached to it . If there is name/ words and / or numbers on the vent that would be helpful too.

Just a few questions to give us a better idea of your situation:

1. Is there one pipe or two attached to the radiator?

2,Where is the boiler located (presumably in the basement) and how close are you to the boiler? ( What floor?).

3.How many units is the apartment?

4. Is it just the whistling that is the problem ? You mentioned overheating- do you always have sufficient heat? 

5.Do you know what controls the temperature of the apartment ? (turns the boiler on and off?)

6.Are you a law student? (LOL-Sorry - I couldn't resist asking!

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

loud whistle

when old steam systems are in a correct state of maintainance, they are virtually silent. i can no longer hear my own 55 radiator system running, but it was not always that way.  do you know if you have 1-pipe, or 2-pipe steam. i suspect that you have 1-pipe, because that type has an air vent mounted on one of the ends, with only one pipe going into the radiator.

from your description, it sounds as though the pressure of the system is much too high, coupled with a lack of main air venting. these main air vents allow air in the pipes out, so that the steam can "arrive" very quickly at the radiators.

systems whose venting is inoperative, can use up to 50% more fuel than when in proper condition, so your landlord must be very rich, in order to waste money in this way! this is outside any legal fees in defence of their depriving you of "quiet enjoyment".

i suggest you show the management this posting and ask them if they have anyone who regularly maintains their boiler. they need another service, to lower pressure, and check main venting. --nbc

whistle_whiner

thanks!!!

thank you both for responding!  this whistle is really driving me nuts.

rod- i've attached some pictures but as you can see they have some weird covering they've placed over the two radiators in the main rooms of my apt which cannot be removed without disassembling part of the radiator (needless to say i'm ill-qualified to do that haha).  the last picture is the radiator in my bathroom, which i assume is just a smaller version of the other two.  the words i can make out on the one in my bathroom say:  "A.Y. MacDonald  MFG Co."  the boiler is in the basement of the building.  i'm on the 4th floor.  there are about 12 apartments per floor (4 floors total).  there are 3 radiators in my apt total.  the whistling is not the only problem.  either it's ridiculously hot (forcing me to open windows in the middle of winter) or pretty chilly, usually the former.  and yes i am a law student hahaa. 

nicholas- i believe it's only one pipe?  if that means that there's only one jutting out from the side.  thank you for your suggestion, i'll definitely let my building manager know.  it's very unexpected that this is happening, because the mgmt company let all the tenants know last year that they were "repairing the system" so that there wouldn't be periods of extreme heat forcing tenants to open their windows.  i guess that repair didn't really do much. 



thanks to you both again!

ttekushan_3

Your post mentions symptoms, also reveals causes.

The symptoms- gurgling, hissing, temperature extremes and madness-inducing whistle.



The causes, or "the Usual Suspects"- management company and maintenance personnel.



All of the problems you list are interrelated and are usually of relatively simple cause, but institutionalized ignorance of steam heat together with the "turf" of the maintenance team prevents anyone of adequate knowledge getting anywhere within a mile of the system.



I can tell you that this is a disturbingly common scenario- and one that is wasteful of energy as well.



Short of using noise canceling headphones and temperature activated window-opening devices, I would say that the whistle is caused by water in the vents. This explains the gurgle as well.



Check this first: Make sure that the radiator valves are either fully open or fully closed. If there are vents on the radiators, then it is most likely a single pipe system and, as such, the radiator valves are not the temperature control. The vents are. A partially opened valve or a defective valve will allow condensate to accumulate in the radiator, causing quite a bit of annoyance.



Then lets see if there is an air vent less likely to cause noise, depending on what you already have.



I suppose you could ask them to install a new thermostatically operated air vent on the radiator to control room temperatures but I suspect that such a request would be answered with silence. Or laughter. Whichever.



Better yet, they should get one of the steam experts listed on this site to straighten out the system. Steam heat should be extremely quiet. Steam heat can be even, without overheating. Steam heat can be relatively economical to operate. I've seen many a steam system that fits these descriptions as well.



In the meantime get us that picture of the dog whistle vents and check the valves. We may get you some relief of the most annoying of symptoms.



-Terry

ttekushan_3

I really need to type faster and be less distracted.

So nevermind some of my post. You already have thermostatic radiator valves on the radiators. What attempts have you made to adjust those operators? Try turning the operator to a lower setting. If the radiators can't be made to run cooler, then those operators may need replacement. They only last so long.



Still check the valves at the floor, where you can get to them. Its worth a look.



Terry

Unknown

Whistle

Hi-   The pictures are a big help. Your radiators have TRVs which if they are working, are great. I attached your photo with arrows/names. to show what each unit is.



You have a one pipe steam system.  Steam enters the radiator and condenses back to water which then flows back to the boiler. The valve (Round tap) on the pipe just before it enters the radiator must be fully open at all times otherwise the steam entering the radiator and the water leaving collide and cause problems.  Also the radiator should be shimmed so that it slopes slightly towards the inlet pipe. This helps the water drain out of the radiator back to the boiler. (2 or 3 stacked quarters under the legs farthest from the inlet pipe work fine)



How the system works- When the steam system starts, the burner turns on and produces steam. At the start of the steam cycle, the  steam pipes are full of air and this air has to be allowed to escape so that steam produced in the boiler, can move into the pipes and to your radiator. There are special vents in a steam system which allow air to escape but when steam reach the vent it closes and keeps the steam from escaping. To vent the Mains (the large steam pipes which carry the steam to your radiator) there has to be large capacity vents located on the end of the mains.  So that steam can enter your radiator there needs to be a separate vent  on each radiator. This vent is designed to have a much smaller venting capacity from the Main vents. Excessive whistling may mean that the Main vents either are non existent or inoperable and so your radiator vents have to do their own job plus that of the main vents. So the mains vents need to be inspected to see if they are ample and have enough venting capacity.



As was mentioned in the other replies, steam systems operate on low pressure usually less than 2 PSI. Unfortunately very few people, heating professionals included, really understand steam. The usual response, if  steam isn’t reaching a part of the building, is to crank up the pressure rather than look for the cause, which is usually because of trapped air (Bad venting) blocking the steam. Steam actually moves faster (30 mph +) at lower pressures.



If the steam pressures have been raised excessively (past 3 PSI) this generally trashes the vents. Vents usually have to be renewed regularly every few years as they wear out.



TRVs - Your radiators have TRVs (Thermostat Radiator Valves) these are located between the radiator and its vent. They are open if the temperature is below the setting on the TRV. When the temperature in the room reaches the set temperature on the TRV the valve closes and doesn’t allow the air in the radiator to pass though to the Vent. As air isn’t being allowed to escape through the radiator vent, it remains in the radiator blocking the steam from entering. This prevents the radiator from heating the room and the room cools. When the temperature drops below the setting on the TRV the valve in the TRV opens and allows air to escape through the vent. Remember this vent is separate from the TRV. The vent will then act normally and close after steam has filled the radiator an reached the vent. TRVs on a system such as yours, have to have a working vacuum breaker to allow air to get back into the system when the boiler shuts off.  If the TRV is old the vacuum breaker may not be working

In the model TRV you have, the vacuum breaker in internal in the TRV.  Looking at the explanation above you can see that a TRV won’t increase the temperature in a room but will keep it from getting too hot. TRVs, like vents, can be ruined by high pressure and they wear`out over time. The TRVs should be preventing your rooms from over heating. Have you tried adjusting them lower?



The vent on your radiator (labeled “vent” in your picture) looks like a Hoffman. Are there any numbers /name on your radiator vent? Radiator vents come indifferent venting capacity and some have adjustable venting capacity. What you may want to do is try a different model radiator vent or one with a smaller (or adjustable) vent capacity.



 Good steam people are hard to find. You might tell us where you are located, There maybe a steam pro on this board near`you who can help your building manager. Your manager sure isn’t getting his moneys worth from his maintenance people  and I imagine the way the steam system is now that it isn’t operating as economically as it should either.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

whistling rads

i can see that they must be somewhat interested in economy, and comfort as they have installed thermostatic air vents, which should be adjustable for maximum temperature. they cannot fire the boiler if it the room is  too cold, but to some degree, they can control the upper limit.

the problem is that these will soon be destroyed if the pressure is as high, as the whistling might indicate. at least they have shown some interest! the TRV's will also have trouble doing their job in the absence of adequate main vents. the money spent on them is wasted, until this problem is taken care of.

without doing anything, they are paying extra to the gas company to squeeeeeze the air out of constipated little radiator vents, as the steam is trying to come up to the radiators. the cost of making this final improvement, would be equal to 6 radiators worth of TRV's!

show your building manager these postings, and maybe she will see the light. surely the gas bill for 48 units is enough, so that a savings of 25-50% percent would pay off these final items in a couple of weeks!--nbc