1-pipe steam losing radiators daily

rcrit

Just bought a 3-story 1920 home with 1-pipe steam radiators. During the home inspection in September all the radiators got hot except for one which had its on/off valve painted shut. The pipe below it got hot though so we left well enough alone. Once we moved in I was able to get a wrench on it and got the line open.



Last week we fired the boiler for the first time and discovered that 3 radiators weren't getting hot, 2 of which are fed by the same pipe (one 2nd floor, one on 3rd floor). I started feeling pipes in the basement and discovered that with both lines the heat stops at an elbow. On one side the pipe is quite hot, on the other luke warm.



We fired it up again last night and now 3 more radiators aren't working.



My brother-in-law is a plumber and hasn't worked on a steam system in a decade but he helped me blow out the boiler and big chunks of sludge came out. He also showed me how to re-fill it. We drained and filled the boiler a few times until the water coming out was more or less clear, but not completely (just less chunky).



He also replaced 6 vents. It didn't make a difference. I noticed that many of the original vents are missing the tuning cap and screws, not sure if that makes a difference. It almost seems like the more I run the system the more radiators stop working.



He thinks the lines are clogged with something and wants to crack open the black pipe saying it can be replaced with copper. This seems like a bad idea to me.



How should I go about troubleshooting this?

nicholas bonham-carter

some rads not working

why not get a copy of "the lost art of steam heating" from the shop here [maybe one for your brother-in-law for Xmas]. it contains a lot of easy to understand information.

when the boiler is firing, can you remove a radiator vent, [do this with someone who can switch off the boiler when you say so], and see steam? if so, there is no clog in the pipe. you may have a sag in the pipe, trapping water, which prevents steam from going up. also check your steam pressure, to make sure it is lower than 1.5 PSI, and ideally, 8 oz. some  radiator vents do not work above that pressure, and if the air cannot get out, then the steam cannot get into the radiator. there should be main line air vents also, and these remove most of the air from the system.

the mfg. of your boiler may have definite instructions for cleaning the boiler, maybe using washing soda, but once clean, use only pure water-no chemicals.

yes, copper lines have no place above the waterline!!!--nbc

Unknown

You need to get "The Books"!

Steam systems are surprisingly simple and easy to fix.  Most of the problems that one has are due to lack of maintenance or due to what some ignorant idiots did to the system over the years. Once you get it straightened out you'll be amazed how nice it is to have steam heating.

As NBC mentioned the first thing you need to do is get Dan's books on steam heating. They're easy reading,  humorous, and written in a style that a homeowner can understand.  After an evening or two of reading, you will be well on your way to understanding  your steam system, its components and how they should operate.



I'd read "We Got Steam Heat" first as it is a good introduction on steam systems and their components.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

and then  I'd read "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" which goes into steam systems more extensively.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating

The two books complement each other. They are also available as a package- See "A Steamy Deal"

 http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Super-Deals/14/129/A-Steamy-Deal



I keep pushing the books to steam heating "newbies" as they are the best way I know to get yourself up to speed on your steam system. Mine have paid for themselves many many times over.

- Rod

rcrit

1-pipe steam losing radiators daily

I may well buy the book(s) but I was sorta hoping to get some advice on what to look for with the immediate problem. Assuming there is some sort of pipe blockage how does one generally repair that?

Big-Al_2

Out or In

If the radiator doesn't get hot, then air isn't getting out or steam isn't getting in.  Either the venting is bad or the supply pipe is blocked somehow.



Here's what I'd do:



1) look around the basement at the steam main.  Are all the hangers in place?  Is it sagging somewhere so that a puddle can form and block the steam?



2) If nothing is obviously wrong from the outside, then I'd check for venting problems, like NBC suggested.  What I would do is to figure out which radiator is furthest down the main from the boiler.  Take out that radiator vent.  You could replace it with a small ball valve if possible so you can shut it off quickly, otherwise have a helper near the thermostat.  Start the boiler and wait.  It might take 20 minutes or more if the boiler is dead cold, but if the steam piping is open, the radiator should heat up and steam will start coming out of the vent hole.  If it does, turn the steam off right away and you know you have a venting issue.  If steam never reaches the radiator, even if you are very patient, something is blocked.  You can repeat the above process on radiators further upstream and when you find one that works, you can figure out where the pipe might be blocked.



3) If you wind up having a mechanical blockage (very unlikely) then you'll need to flush out the main somehow.  If you need to take out a section of pipe, do it up to the nearest fittings on either side and then you can replace the section using a union to make the final connection.



4) If you find you have a venting problem, first check out the boiler pressure setting.  Anything over 3 PSI will kill radiator vents.  2 psi is maximum . . . lower is better.  If your pressure is set too high, lower it and replace the damaged vents.



5) Buy Dan's books.  Absolutely.  Seriously. They are easy to read, and when you are done you'll know more about steam than many heating guys.



6) With steam: Copper = Bad

nicholas bonham-carter

unblocking steam pipes

you can buy some fittings at the local hardware store to adapt from the female vent threads on the rad [1/8"] to a garden hose. connect it up, and turn on the water slowly [don't want too much pressure all of a sudden!]. naturally, you will have to find a convenient union near the boiler for the junk to get out.

i think it is highly unlikely that there is a blockage, more likely a main and radiator venting issue, caused by over-pressur, or a sagging pipe [check it with a level]. sometimes the legs of the radiator will sink into the floor, and cause a low spot in the pipe below.--nbc

Unknown

Radiators

I don't think the  pipes being blocked isn't very likely. Generally if there is a blockage in a steam system, it is on the wet leg on the return to the boiler as all the "gunk" in the system collects there.



  I would first check for slope on all the radiators. Use a long carpenter's level and make sure each radiator slopes towards the end of the radiator that the inlet pipe is on. (Use a level- don't rely on "eyeball". I had a problem radiator and while it looked like it had slope it really didn't as the floor had sagged quite a bit). The slope will allow any condensate (water) in the radiator to flow out. 



Secondly I would make sure that all the inlet valves in the radiators are fully open. on a 1 pipe system these valves can not be throttled half way as then the steam and returning condensate collide. The two items, no slope, partially closed valve, will keep condensate in the radiator and not allow steam to enter or the air to escape (from the lateral piper)  through the radiator vent.



I would then, as Big -Al suggested, try the 1/8 inch ball valve setup in place of the radiator vent. (Use some elbows nipple etc .to duct the steam in a safe direction. Steam burns hurt! ) If that works, the radiator and pipe is okay and you need to address the radiator vent.  Radiator vents can go bad (especially if subjected to high pressure (3 psi +) and it 's a good idea to replace them every few years. If you find you have a suspect radiator vent, swap it with one that you know is working as an additional check. Make sure the steam system is turned off and there is no pressure before removing radiator vents. (I know this is a given but mentioned it as sometimes it is hard to detect if steam pressure is present -steam burns are no fun!)



If the above doesn't result in a fix. I would then take a look at the valves going into the radiator. These can seem to operate okay but have broken off internally and are either partially blocking the opening or completely closed. Be suspect of any that don't have a good "feel" or turn too easily. It might be possible that a piece of the valve has fall down the pipe and is blocked the lateral at the elbow. This is rather`rare though. The previous replies have suggested other items to check so I won't mention them here. .



As others have mentioned, using copper pipe of the steam side of the system is a big "no-no".

When you add water after flushing the boiler, be sure to bring the "new" water to a boil to drive off the excess oxygen as other wise this can cause corrosion to your boiler. One thing you might want to do is find your main vents.They should be

at the far end of each main away from the boiler. Having abundant main

venting is one of the keys to a good operating steam system. You also might want to post some pictures of your boiler and the piping around it so we can see how your system is configured.



Let us know how you make out. There are other items you need to check

when you "take over" a steam system but let's just do a bit at a time.

- Rod

Big-Al_2

Thanks Rod

I was just going to go back and edit my post to add some kind of warning about steam burns . . . but Rod beat me to it.  Wise words indeed.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Also..

Flood the boiler with water to the piping above to be sure you don't have a hole in the boiler.



Boilerpro

rcrit

A little more data

I've made a little bit of progress on my problem.



I had replaced some valves with Vent-Rite #11. The included instructions seem to indicate that it is adjustable but it isn't, I'd need #1's for that. This is replacing a Hoffman model adjustable valve. I can blow through either of them with no problem so I'm not sure that the old valves are bad/clogged.



I threw caution to the window and took off a valve while the boiler was firing. With either the Vent-Rite or Hoffman valve installed I couldn't hear any air bleeding out. With the valve off the air coming out was obvious (though not scolding hot, fortunately). With the valve off almost any radiator I tried soon became hot. Unfortunately if I replaced the valve it never got hot again.



On the run that I think may be clogged, removing the valve didn't seem to make a difference. It never seemed to bleed and never got hot. I tested the end-of-the-line though, there is one other radiator that I can do this test on.



I hope to get the steam books this week so I can better understand what is going on so I can know if I need to replace all or some of the #11's, and avoid doing silly, dangerous things like removing valves on a live system.



I also found a leak in the boiler at the glass level. Whenever the boiler fires it causes the level to go up and a little bit of water weeps out the top. I'm not sure if I should put a wrench to this or not so I just moved the dump bucket underneath it and I have a dry basement again. I'm keeping an eye on it daily and it doesn't seem to be affecting the water level greatly (yet). Wouldn't want to forget about it though.

Unknown

Pictures

Pulling off the vent when there is steam in the system is a BIG NO-NO!  You lucked out as if the system was working properly, you most probably would have got a bad steam burn. Once you experience a steam burn you will strenuously avoid doing a repetition!  Live steam is nothing to mess around with !



It would seem that your boiler isn't making steam or at least it isn't going into the mains in any volume which suggests the possibility of a leak.

Did you do as Boiler Pro suggested?  (Boiler Pro is one of the very experienced  steam pros on this board so I would take his suggestions very seriously)  What he suggested is that you flood you boiler so that it is completely filled with water. You want to fill the boiler piping too to above the boiler but be careful with this as you don't want water to enter the radiators or mains.

This is a test to see if your boiler  has leaks either internally into the burner area or externally which will show up as water on the floor. This test is of course done with the boiler turned off !  Let it stand for a while a couple of hours so that any leak will show up no mater how small. Then drain the water level down to the normal  operating level (about 1/2  way in the site glass). Most leaks occur at or above the operating water line.

You mentioned that you have a leak. Perhaps if you could attach some pictures of your boiler we could get a better idea of what is occuring.  Where exactly is the leak? you mentioned possibly tightening -tightening what?

- Rod

rcrit

leak and fill

The leak I see is at the top of the sight glass.



How do I fill the boiler, simply open the fill valve until the water level gets to the top of the sight glass?

rcrit

some pictures

Some low-quality camera phone pictures but hopefully you'll get the idea.



The boiler is a Slant/Fin Corp Galaxy natural-gas boiler. I was told it is only 5 or 6 years old but I can find no dates on it to confirm that. It would appear that when the boiler was installed the piping around it was converted to copper.



I annotated 2 places where I've seen water leaking.



I've never seen the pressure gauge read anything other than zero.

Unknown

Testing Boiler

Leak- Where exactly is the leak? Between the boiler and the sight glass mounting? Or on the sight glass mounting to the glass tube? Be careful when ever working on the sight glass as they are very easy to break.



To test the boiler for leaks the idea is to completely fill the boiler with water. enough so the boiler is totally filled with water and slightly up into the risers (pipes) above the boiler.  If the boiler is completely full of water and  a hole exists in your boiler, the  water will leak out onto the floor. Let it stand filled with water for a while as it will take time for water to leak from holes. any larger leaker will be readily apparent. After you have performed the test drain the excess water out of the boilere till the water line is back to the normal operating level on the glass.  Be careful not to put in too much water and flood your house through the radiator vents. If you aren't sure of exactly what to do I'd get your brother in law or another pro to help you.

rcrit

sight glass leak

There is a fitting on the top of the sight glass. Air/water bubbles out when the boiler is firing. I was afraid you'd warn about breaking the sight glass, I'm glad I asked before I jumped in.

Unknown

Need more Pictures

Hi- Thanks for the pictures. Could you possibly take a few more from a position farther away from the boiler?   We need to be able to see the overall piping around the boiler and where it leads.  Your photos are high resolution and can be blown up if we need to see detail.

I'm sorry to say this but from what I can see so far in your pictures your boiling piping can only be described as a "disaster"!  The best thing is do to probably rip it out and start over. It needs to be done in black pipe anyway. With Dan's books and your brotherinlaw's help it shouldn't be that hard of a job. 

I would hold off on testing the boiler until later when you redo the pipes as it is easier to test at that time. From the dirt in the sight glass it would seem that the boiler has been badly neglected. See if you can find a plate on the boiler with the info on the model etc. as that would be helpful. 

- Rod

JN

Pressuretrol

Isnt that set a big high?

Unknown

Pressure?

Yes I noticed the gauge pressure too.  It seems way too high!  It shouldn't be more than about 1 1/2 PSI. .It maybe broken or clogged up.



 You actually need two pressure gauges - The required 0-30 PSI gauge and a low pressure gauge to use to monitor your system pressure. The gauges also need to be protected by the pigtail. They should be attached in a way similar to the yellow ones in the attached picture.

LarryC

Pressuretrol not just a bit too HIGH.......

That pressuretrol is set to 9+ pounds per square inch !!!!!!!!!!   That is not just a "bit" high, that's "lets go make make some scrap metal out of radiator vents" high!

NO!  NO!   AND I REPEAT NO!!

That little grey box is supposed to Control the pressure of the steam system.  Adjust the pressure set-point DOWN to about 1 psi.  If I remember correctly, you said that the system heats up and eventually turns off.  If it is turning off because it has finally reached the pressure set point, probably all of the radiator vents are toast (to use those highly technical terms).  The radiator vents are usually ruined when they see pressures greater than 3 psi.

Listen to these professionals, a properly operating steam system should operate around 0.5 psi.

I am speculating that someone who doesn't understand how a steam system is suppose to work, turned the pressure up to "fix" a problem.

Turn the pressure DOWN!

Vent the mains.

Vent the radiators.

Open the radiator valves all of the way.

Slope the pipes and radiators correctly.

Good luck.

Larry C  (an opinionated over-caffeinated home owner)

rcrit

lowered pressure

I lowered the pressure to .5 and the diff to 1. I noticed an immediate difference the next time the boiler came on: lots more interesting noises. Sounded like some minor water hammer, some radiators ticked and one that still doesn't quite work hissed a bit. But at least things are happening now.



I found the main vent and it doesn't seem to be working at all. That is likely the source of most of my problems. I tried to take a picture of it but it came out pretty lousy.



Here are some more pictures for your viewing pleasure.



And thanks for all the handy advice! I used "Find a Professional" and will have someone out in a week or so (this being the busy season).



P.S. If you're wondering why the pictures are so dark it's because the basement is completely unlit. I have shop lights spread around so I can see. That gets fixed Friday. Isn't home ownership great?

ttekushan_3

the piping is, uhhh, "interesting"

As soon as you get the books, you will see how wrong the boiler piping is. The straight take-off and the positioning of the equalizer I thought were quite precious until I noticed the unique interpretation of the Hartford Loop. You're boiler has the rare yet undesirable "marathon hartford connection" where the close nipple is replaced with a nice long acceleration line just to see how much difficulty can be achieved when the water line is about even with that long pipe.



Download the installation manual if it isn't around there. You'll see the problem.



-Terry

Unknown

Pictures

Hi - I "tweeked" your pictures so they are easier to view and have attached them below.

Also here is a link to the I&O Manual for the Galaxy Boiler. You might want to down load the manual and have it available for reference.

http://www.slantfin.com/documents/401.pdf



I also have included a diagram of the recommended boiler piping from page 7 of the Galaxy I&O manual. This is basically what your boiler piping should look like. There are some minor modifications that should  be made but generally your boiler should look close to this. The guy who did you boiler obviously didn't read the manual.



I'm glad to hear`you have contacted a pro. That will be very worth while as a Pro can spot something immediately that needs to be changed. With the books and the Pro you should soon be right on track.



The fact that the guy who did your boiler was so incompetent rather bothers me. I think it might be a good idea to look over your steam system's design, measure the radiators and check that the boiler is sized properly for your system. The books will tell you exactly just how to do this and I'd also have the Pro check it too.

You're well on your way to getting things straightened out and having a comfortable system for the winter.

- Rod

rcrit

Almost there

Had a nice visit from Frank and Gordon from All Steamed up today, and boy what a day it was.



They got all but one of my radiators working and best of all we learned that my boiler isn't leaking. Finally something in this new house of mine doesn't need immediate replacement :-)



In a few short hours they:

* Replaced my hosed Hoffman #75 with a Gorton #2

* Added a Hoffman #75 onto the end of the other main

* Replaced my leaky site glass

* Moved the pressure gauge off the pigtail

* Raised one of my radiators an inch or so

* Moved around the fixed and adjustable vents I had to balance the system



The problem with two of my radiators was a sagging pipe. The probable reason it worked during the home inspection is all the water had evaporated. Once I ran it a few times I'm it filled with water, hence no heat.



The final radiator also needs to be lifted but the pipe to it runs

under the floor and is as high as it goes. This one needs to be

addressed from below by shortening a length of pipe. That will wait for

another day.





Now the radiators heat all the way across! What a difference.



We agreed that while the piping above the boiler is both wrong and an atrocity it can wait for another day. As it turns out the boiler is slightly undersized so I can address that when/if I end up replacing it.



The best part was the education I got today looking over their shoulders. Worth every penny.

Steamhead

Thanks, Rob

that means a lot!



One correction though- we rearranged the pressure gauge so it is ON the pigtail, rather than before it. This will let us check to see if the pigtail is clear by removing the gauge and blowing into the pipe. No more disconnecting and removing the pressuretrol.

Paul Fredricks_3

Frank and Gordo

They are  The Man!

Geop

Sources for parts needed

I have a question regarding Paul's comment about needing two guages. I was about to remove my 30 psi guage and get a guage that will actually tell me the what pressure the boiler is actually running. Why is the 30 psi guage required on a low pressure system? What would a dual guage setup look like. Could Paul or someone comment on this?

Also, I would like a recommendation for the source of low pressure Guage, for a Vaporstat (now have a Pressuretrol), and for some Danfoss or Honeywell (or

whatever) "thermostatic valves", the type that go on a 1 pipe radiator and have the air valve mounted on the Danfoss with the knob allowing allowing a fine adjustment of how quickly the air is allowed to escape. The idea is to have more control in balancing the system.

Ideally, this would be a source that will not require me to re-mortage to get perhaps up to 10 of the adjustable Danfoss type valves.

Note: in another post (I am in the process of reading them all) I see Rod's valve test setup. Would the 1/8th ball valve and a wide open air valve give me a really cheap/crude but usable equivalent of the Danfoss??

I will not tell you how many years I messed with the air valves trying to get heat to the ends of several lines and somewhere I found one Danfoss. I put this on the radiator nearest the thermostat and was then able to control that radiator so that it did not cause the thermostat to be satisified too soon. Presto-heat in the radiators that never would heat up before.

For reference, I am running a Weil McClain P66 Oil Boiler with a natural gas burner installed about 29 years ago. I thought that I might go back to oil at some point but never have, only burned gas.

The radiators compute out to approx 600 sq ft. There are 4 double pipe radiators on the 3rd floor, 3 double pipe and 5 one pipe on the second floor, and 1 double pipe and 6 one pipe on the first floor.

The boiler is in the center of the basement, and the basement piping is in an H layout, feeding the first floor radiators as it goes with risers for the upper floors. It seems that there may be some jogs within the walls for the upper floor distribution.

Comments what might be a good replacement for this boiler would be welcome. I will not have enough years left in this home to get any kind of significant payback on a new boiler, so a balance between the most Green solution and reality is necessary. That said, energy star rating would be nice and the Weil McClain EGs don't have that.

(Is this post too detailed?) Thank you for any comments.

Geop

Sources for parts needed

I have a question regarding Paul's comment (Oct 12) about needing two guages. I was about to remove my 30 psi guage and get a guage that will actually tell me the what pressure the boiler is actually running. Why is the 30 psi guage required on a low pressure system? What would a dual guage setup look like. Could Paul or someone comment on this?



Also, I would like a recommendation for the source of low pressure Guage, for a Vaporstat (now have a Pressuretrol), and for some Danfoss or Honeywell (or

whatever) "thermostatic valves", the type that go on a 1 pipe radiator and have the air valve mounted on the Danfoss with the knob allowing allowing a fine adjustment of how quickly the air is allowed to escape. The idea is to have more control in balancing the system. Ideally, this would be a source that will not require me to re-mortage to get perhaps up to 10 of the adjustable Danfoss type valves.



Note: in another post (I am in the process of reading them all) I see Rod's valve test setup. Would the 1/8th ball valve and a wide open air valve give me a really cheap/crude but usable equivalent of the Danfoss??



I will not tell you how many years I messed with the air valves trying to get heat to the ends of several lines and somewhere I found one Danfoss. I put this on the radiator nearest the thermostat and was then able to control that radiator so that it did not cause the thermostat to be satisified too soon. Presto-heat in the radiators that never would heat up before.

For reference, I am running a Weil McClain P66 Oil Boiler with a natural gas burner installed about 29 years ago. I thought that I might go back to oil at some point but never have, only burned gas. Timing the gas meter shows the input to be approx 172K btu/hr.



The radiators compute out to approx 600 sq ft. There are 4 double pipe radiators on the 3rd floor, 3 double pipe and 5 one pipe on the second floor, and 1 double pipe and 6 one pipe on the first floor.



The boiler is in the center of the basement, and the basement piping is in an H layout, feeding the first floor radiators as it goes with risers for the upper floors. It seems that there may be some jogs within the walls for the upper floor distribution.



Also, comments what might be a good replacement (gas) for this boiler would be welcome. I will not have enough years left in this home to get any kind of significant payback on a new boiler, so a balance between the most Green solution and reality is necessary. That said, energy star rating would be nice and the Weil McClain EGs don't have that.

Thank you for your help and thanks Heating Help for this forum.

(Re-posting since I put the first try in the wrong place)

Steamhead

That 30 PSI gauge

is a Code requirement. Boilers are required to have gauges capable of reading twice the boiler's maximum allowable working pressure. Since a low-pressure steam boiler is rated for up to 15 PSI, which has nothing to do with the systems we connect them to, the gauge must read up to 30 PSI.



This does not prevent us from installing gauges that read lower, as long as the 30 PSI gauge stays there. Try "The Gauge Store" for low-pressure gauges- www.gaugestore.com .



Vaporstats are available from several online sources- try State Supply first, www.statesupply.com. The one you want maxes out at 16 ounces, I believe it's the Honeywell L408J1019. This site is also good for getting Gorton vents.



The most efficient gas-fired residential steamers are the Slant/Fin Intrepid and Smith G-8. These are basically wet-base oil-fired boilers that are also factory-approved for use with power gas burners. Their thermal efficiency is roughly 6% better than the usual atmospheric steamer like the EG. Here are pics of them. What burner do you have in your W-M 66?