Is my steam system setup wrong?

JN

Hello, previous owners installed new boiler. I have some concerns.



The boiler feed lines split off one goes to front side of house, other goes to back side.

Returns come back under the feed lines.



I was checking vents today and noticed that the vent on the return line was not venting and was very hot, but the feed line and return line on that side were cold. Then i noticed just under the vent there was line connected directly to the feed from the boiler. Im guessing this shouldnt be there?



I have some pics.



Blue is return lines, red is feed, yellow points out feed into return.

nicholas bonham-carter

inherited steam problems

yes, the piping seems not to follow the usual practices. get a copy of the mfg's instructions, and compare your piping to their requirements for  pipe material, dia. and height above the waterline. was the house inspected before the sale?

those main air vents, even if working probably do not have the capacity to let the air out, so you will pay extra to the gas company to squeeeeze the air out of their constipated little openings! gorton vents would give you quicker response to a call for heat.

get a copy here of "the lost art of steam heating" and become an informed steam user.

check the pressure of your system and make sure it is under 1 psi. also check the water-is it clean?--nbc

JH_2

copper?

also looks like the made the header out of copper?  I think that's a big no-no.

JN

hmmm

The header is definitely copper. Why is that a big no-no?



The vents on the return lines say 1933 on them, im not sure if thats a model date or what.



No official inspection done and it was a foreclosure so it was an as-is. We did a walk through with a contractor but no one really looked at the steam system.



I dont know the boiler PSI. The boilers gauge is pegged at +30 psi even if when the units been shut completely off, so the gauge is seriously messed up. Should I install a gauge on the header? Or somewhere else?



The water in the level tube is clean, when I drain the boiler I do get some rusty looking water. But I assume thats to be expected?



If anyone knows any good steam heads in Massachusetts (worcester arae) let me know. All the heating guys I know of don tknow much about steam.

nicholas bonham-carter

copper piping problems

with copper, and its different coefficient of expansion, there can be more leaks at the sweat joints. if it was professionally installed, maybe the contractor could correct his mistakes, for a reduced price; because the mfg's warranty could be voided by improper piping.

definitely get a new 0-30 psi gauge [required by code] as well as one which is in the range of 0-2 psi [best operating pressure is 1 psi or less]. gaugestore.com sells the low pressure gauge. mount them all on the same cleaned up pigtail.

there is always a bit of sediment to drain out from,-"blow down from" the boiler. clean water in the sight glass tube is good, but there may be residual oils from the installation-see "skimming" in "the lost art of steam heating".

have you tried the find a professional here, for your area? when you get it running as originally installed, you will love steam heat, but it does require regular attention to water level, etc.--nbc

Unknown

1933 is a,

model of steam air-vent made by Dole. You may find some info http://www.tunstallonline.com/doleairvalve.html here.

JN

vents

Yeah it looks like those vents are made for radiators not main lines.



Is my system a true 1 pipe system? I ask as there are two steam outlets on the boiler, but they join into one?



thanks,

Josh

JN

Steam vent locations.

Also should the main vets be on the end of the RETURN? Or at the end of the FEED?

It seems strange to have the vents at the end of the return by the boiler because they have to run an extra 30+ ft for the steam to get back to them.



At the end of the steam feeds there is a 180 elbow/reducer that drops under the feed and goes from 2" feed to 1" return. Isnt this where to vents should be located?



-josh

Jim Pompetti

you need

to get a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" And a good steam guy.

JN

just ordered

the lost art of steam heating is on its way.



Anyone got any insight on those main vents?

nicholas bonham-carter

main vent location

on the end of the dry return, 12" back from the drop dpwn to the wet return is right. air left in the pipes can be unpredictable so you need it all gone as steam is rising.

you would defimitely  benefit greatly [to the detriment of the gas company] with bigger main vents!--nbc

Unknown

Do some reading first,,,

to get better acquainted with your steam system.  Typically the main vents are installed near the end (15" back), from where it turns from horizontal to vertical.      

JN

vents wrong location then!

The vents are right on the 90 that drops down into the water. OK,  can anyone recommend a set of vents? I've got about 35ft run of pipe on each side. The return runs along it on the way back. 2 story. 2" feed, 1" return 1 1/4 feeds radiotors of 1st floor 1" feeds second floor. 2 large radiators on back side first floor, 2 small on the second floor.  Same setup on the front side of the house.

-josh

JN

any good onine reading?

While I wait for the book?



thanks!

RobLC

Main Vents...

Some years back, Steamhead, one of the pros contributing here on The Wall, strongly suggested I install a Gorton #2 (these are the big ones and they clear the mains of air quickly) vent at each end of the mains.

Where it used to take about an hour for the rads to warm up now takes about 20 minutes - - and we have 3 floors.

Hope this helps.

RobLC

RobLC

Main Vents...

Some years back, Steamhead, one of the pros contributing here on The Wall, strongly suggested I install a Gorton #2 (these are the big ones and they clear the mains of air quickly) vent at each end of the mains.

Where it used to take about an hour for the rads to warm up now takes about 20 minutes - - and we have 3 floors.

Hope this helps.

RobLC

JN

The Manual says...

That the piping at the boiler is setup wrong.



Here is a list of things I can see



-There's only one takeoff from the feeds then that splits.

Manual says no bullheads, to do two takeoffs.

Anyone know why no bullheads allowed on this boiler?



-The vents are directly over the wet return and are wrong size



-A steam feed connects to the return pipeing at the boiler way above water line, feeding the return line with steam.



-The water fill goes into a pipe connected to the steam feed above water line



-Header piping is 2" copper, manual calls for 2 1/2 ( anyone know why this matters so much?)



-No skimming T



Oye.

nicholas bonham-carter

pipe size

pipe which is too small in diameter, increases the velocity of the steam, and can pull out water droplets, making the steam "wet" [and colder] instead of "dry" [and with more heat]. you can probably use the next larger size, but never the next smaller. increasing the number of risers can compensate for this unfortunate condition.

as for the "bullheaded tee", use the search function for that term, and it will be explained better than i can do, with my "hunt and peck"!--nbc

Unknown

Premature "guesswork"

You just ordered LAOSH, believe-me it wont take long for delivery.Once you read-it you`ll better understand what your asking,,,,,, be patient!

Steamhead

That boiler header

is what we call a "colliding header" since the steam from both outlets collides with each other as it tries to make the turn out toward the system. That's wrong.



Copper steam piping is wrong.



Piping smaller than manufacturer calls for- wrong.



Dole 1933 vents are made for radiators or convectors, not steam mains. They're wrong.



You need a good steam man. Where are you located? Have you tried the Find a Professional page of this site?

JN

Thanks

for the confirmation and explanation guys! I haven't tried the find a professional button yet. In fact I didn't even notice it until you said something. Im a real DIY kind of guy so maybe I had some blinders too it. I think there is a lot I can do, but I would love the help of a real knowledgable steam guy. Im located near Worcester Ma.



I just tried the find a pro link and it found no one hmm.

Steamhead

Should have

I know there are a bunch in MA- maybe try a wider search area?

Unknown

Take time to learn about steam

Hi JN - As Dave said -"slow down".  I'm a homeowner and was in a similar position with a screwed up steam system and I knew nothing about steam. Dan's books, "The Lost Art....."  and "We Got Steam Heat" are your salvation and will put you on the right track. I wouldn't jump and change things until I was sure I had a good overall understanding of my steam system.



Take your time and learn and "digest".  Discover each part of your steam system and how it functions.  One of the items which isn't mentioned in Dan's books is "dropheaders". Got to the "Resources" button at the top of this page, click it and select "Library" and then scroll down the page to "Steam Piping"  There is some good pictures of drop headers there.  Save the pictures and then applying what you are learning, study them carefully as they can teach you a lot.  Dropheaders are the way to go!!!   You might also want to take a look around the "Library"at other steam topics.



I would definitely get a "steam pro" (someone that really knows steam) to look at your system and suggest the changes that you need. There are some things you can do and some things left better to a pro.



Before I found this site and Dan's books I struggled for several years trying to get my steam system working properly. It is now much more comfortable and economical and with a few changes yours will be also.

- Rod

JN

tried

a 250 mile distance from Worcester ma and got nothing. The search must be screwed up.

Jean-David Beyer

It is a little messed up.

Try



Worcester

MA



Do not spell out the state and do use upper-case letters



30 mile radius will get you two. 50 miles will get you 13 (if I counted righte)>

Unknown

Finding a Steam Pro

As JD says, it seems to be a "little messed up".  This website( Heating Help) was just very recently updated and the new site format has some parts don't seem to be working quite right yet.



You might want to go over to the "Strictly Steam" section of "Questions" and put a post asking for a steam pro near Worcester Mass. The steam specialists are more likely to look there when they come on the site. Just a thought.

- Rod

George_36

Confused about Main Vent Location

The Main Vent needs to be installed at the end of the dry return, 12" back from the drop down to the wet return?  Is the wet reurn the pipes that are below the water line near the boiler?

I had two main vents installed last year far from the boiler, at the end of the Mains. The Main is connected to a pipe that rises to heat the 2nd floor and that pipe also goes underground and leads back to the boiler. Is this is the wet return?

The other Main Vent is installed near the end of another main but I don't see any wet return. 

Should I have more Main Vents installed on the Mains near the boiler? Are the other Main Vent locations correct?

Unknown

main vents

Hi George-

Your question is kind of buried down here under all the answers to the other post. Generally you'd probably get more response if you started a new thread in the "Strictly Steam " section.



You didn't give  a lot of info about your steam system.so there are several possibilities as to what your configuration is. First of all is your system one pipe or two pipe steam?

If you aren't familiar with this, it means do your radiators have one (one pipe steam) or two (two pipe steam) pipes attached to them?



Very basically the "main" is the section of pipe above the boiler that the lateral steam pipes leading to the radiators are attached. At the point after the last radiator lateral is attached, the pipe becomes the "dry return" . The main usually actually runs on a ways past where the last radiator lateral pipe and then turns down usually into a smaller pipe. It is at this point the it would normally be called the "dry return" and the optimum point for the main vent location is on the top of the main 12- 15 inches back from where it turns down. (This 12 to 15`inches is so condensate (water) colliding with the elbow at the end of the main doesn't back up into the vent which over`time would destroy the vent. This is the optimum though you'll find many vents are placed closer/differently)  A "dry return" has condensate (water) in it though it is not full of water. When the "dry return" drops below the level of the boiler's (operating) waterline it become obviously becomes full of water and though often the same pipe is now called the wet return. Depending on the configuration of the return pipes this can occur close or extend far` from the boiler.



Mains have slope so that the condensate (water) will flow back to the boiler.  Normally the highest point of the main is right above the boiler and from that point it slopes towards the dry return. That way the steam and the condensate both flow the same direction.  There are some types mains that are called "counter-flow" or "contra flow" mains. In this case the slope is from the end of the main back towards the boiler. The problems with this type is that the condensate (water) flows against (opposite ) to the steam flow and collides with the steam causing potential water hammer and wet steam problems. Contra flow systems need main vents too and (it) they are located in the same place, past where the last radiator lateral pipe.

The object of the main vents is to get air out of the steam's path so the steam can get into the radiators as quickly as possible.  

From your description I'm not quite sure of the configuration of your second floor piping.  The big test is : Are you have problems with your system now?



I'm a homeowner rather than a pro. I don't know whether you have them yet or not but i would strongly recommend Dan's books - "We Got Steam Heat" and "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" as all this is covered in those books . They're non technical and humorous easy reading and full of facts. My copies have paid for themselves may times over.

- Rod

Rich Kontny_3

Money well spent

JN ,

  You can also learn from a professional. I would strongly rcommend getting someone reputable in and have them correct the piping and vent problems. You most likely bought the house right and should also have the boiler combustion tested and set up properly.



  A good steam contractor has not only the right tools and equipment but years of experience. Your heat source is a very important and should be treated accordingly. You can read all the books and research this to death and still not have the hands on experience a contractor can offer.



Rich Kontny