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2 stage gas burner

SBoston
SBoston Member Posts: 61
Last year we installed a new Burnham Steam boiler. I have been working to update the vents, controls, thermostat and even installed a drop header.. but a two stage gas burner would be the Coup De Grace.  Do they make something like this for steam?  

Comments

  • Jim Pompetti
    Jim Pompetti Member Posts: 552
    Unless its

    a Mega Steam , the drop header,  will need to be customized  .
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    yes they do.

    here is a link. [url=http://www.maxitrol.com/Regulators/2stageregulators.html]http://www.maxitrol.com/Regulators/2stageregulators.html those are the ones we use. You still obviously have to have a ''trigger'' device.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • SBoston
    SBoston Member Posts: 61
    2 stage

    Is it possible to retrofit a burnham Independence to work with a two stage?
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    yes, we retrofit

    the independance models all the time..we put in very few boilers without two stage firing..shame we can't get them from the factory that way..least not the residential models.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • SBoston
    SBoston Member Posts: 61
    2 stage

    What do you use as a trigger for the regulator? Pressure? i.e if the pressure is > 16oz? Do you ever run into problems where the system looses the boil (steam)?

    Don't suppose you do work in the Boston Area?
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,508
    2-stage burner control

    the only way i know how this can be done is with a second vaporstat. firing from cold, the burner operates at high fire until the second vaporstat determines the set interim pressure has been achieved [3 oz?]. then the burner drops to low fire, and if the pressure can be maintained, stays at that firing rate.  usually the burner will be cycling back and forth, high-low fire.

    usually the valves are designed to give 100/75 % gas. surely this will save fuel as it favors running the burner for longer periods of time at lower rates, once the pick-up factor has been reached,  all the pipes have been warmed up, and the air is out of the system, etc..--nbc
  • Patrick_North
    Patrick_North Member Posts: 249
    What about Smith?

    I'm looking into the Smith G8 boiler (for steam) and inquired about a hi-low type setup approved for use with this boiler. The response I got (from their tech support line) was that:

    "The Carlin gas burner that we utilize with the series 8 boiler is an on/off burner only. The majority of the gas burners manufactured in this capacity range are available only with an on/off firing mode. Normally the two stage hi-lo firing burners are only available on commercial fired equipment."

    Is a two stage burner/regulator really not an option here? Is this something that could be retrofitted later?

    Thanks,

    Patrick
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    exact-amundo

    thats the best way.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    I don't work

    on gun burners so i couldn't answer that one..perhaps someone in oil heat country could chime in with a power burner answer.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • SBoston
    SBoston Member Posts: 61
    2 stage burner



    What's interesting is that when my boiler first kicks on, the fire rate is low, then within 1 -2 seconds the burners turn on full blast. It's to bad we can't capitalize on this and use this built in functionality.

    On a completely separate note, is it possible that a steam system was installed originally with out the use of main vents? Today I completely mapped out my steam mains and realized that there isn't a single main vent or a place that they could have been and removed some time in the past. All the ends go to a radiator and have elbow's rather then Tee's. Were some systems installed back in the day with out main vents?
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,508
    no vents

    that must be an old system! when first installed, the coal fire was  set up at the beginning of cold weather, and burned more or less continuously throughout the winter. therefore there was no need to deal with air removal repeatedly everytime the burner kicks on, because, this fire never went off!. when the fire was at its lowest, in the early morning there would have been some steam still in the radiators, even though at negligeable pressure.

    now that your system has been "modernized" beyond the coal stage, you will have to find a way to put main vents in. is it counter-flow or parallel? there will be a noticeable improvement when you get adequate venting on board.--nbc
  • BRIANJ
    BRIANJ Member Posts: 118
    Two Stage Gas

    Is it possible to trigger Hi-lo with a Honeywell L608 Vaporstat.
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    as long as it has

    a ''make on rise'' terminal it will power the maxitrol 2 stage regulator.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    i must ask -

    would this not substantially change the AGA/CGA certification of the burner? And void any product warranty? It is my experience that changing gas pressures in an atmospheric burner just leads to trouble later on - which means this is more complex than just adding a 2 stage valve and firing control. It may involve changing to a Riello 2 stage burner for example. Your intentions are noble - just wondering out loud how this is going to happen safely.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,832
    edited August 2009
    That's

    a slow-opening gas valve doing its thing. This helps keep the flame from rolling out of the firing area when it lights.



    Boiler makers are really dragging their feet when it comes to things like 2-stage firing on residential units. The savings are proven on larger steamers. We had one customer with a huge Broomell system cut his fuel consumption by 40% when we hooked up a lo-hi-lo gas valve that had come on his boiler and the installer never hooked up. We installed a Vaporstat set to trip at 2 ounces. BTW, the L608 has a SPDT switch so it can either make or break on pressure rise. Same with the mercury-free L408J.



    Unfortunately, some manufacturers may not support the addition of 2-stage firing on their atmospheric units. I really think they have blinders on................



    You could get away without main vents with coal firing, since the coal fire came up slowly and the air stayed out once the steam filled the system. But using main vents did make the system heat faster. Nowadays we don't have that kind of time and fuel is much more expensive. Sometimes people who work for the oil or gas company tell you that you don't need main vents, but we know what their motivation is.....
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,010
    Hi Glen,

    We just work on the standard atmospheric burners not on power burners but as far as the style we work on goes, it seems to be fine as far as safety goes, but i'm sure the manufacturers warranty is impacted..altho thats the least thing i ever worry about as i've had a rep tell me that their warranty really is based upon how well they liked me..go figure..One of the old timers (a dead man now) who helped train me taught me this way, ''find a control that does what you want it to do, and put it on the boiler, then the boiler will do what you want it to do''..his generation won world war 2 with that attitude..'couse today we have lawyers, hehe, so everyone has to judge what they do for themselves..but yup, i'm sure we give the manufacturers a way out of their warranties more often than not :(
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Glen Aspen_2
    Glen Aspen_2 Member Posts: 53
    Fair enough -

    ''find a control that does what you want it to do, and put it on the boiler, then the boiler will do what you want it to do'' It can't be much simpler than that.
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 940
    to keep from losing pressure

    Regarding the issue of losing steam pressure on low fire, you must keep in mind that high fire is a function of boiler ratings and low fire you must adjust based on the system design. I think this is why manufacturers don't always offer this feature for their steam boilers while it is available on the hot water version. The Weil McLain LGB is a perfect example. Its A-Okay to wire for high and low fire for hot water, but this feature is ignored for steam. I can only guess that it is the issue of potentially declining steam pressure at low fire. If the pressure falls slowly BEFORE all the radiators are hot, some radiators may never get hot at all.



    All I do is adjust the low fire rate so that steam pressure holds steady or rises verrrrry slowly. Everything works fine this way.



    BTW, I usually use a Vaporstat as the trigger.
    terry
  • MDNLansing
    MDNLansing Member Posts: 297
    Important

    Venting the mains quickly is very important to make the vacuum work. Don't over look it.
  • Ban
    Ban Member Posts: 79
    Gerry,

    What is the manufacture name of the two-stage gas burner you use? I was always under the impression that you couldn't downfire, or use two-stage burners on atmospheric boilers. I have seven boilers that I am responsible for, knowing this info is huge.



    It's appreciated!



    Richard
    Richard Ban
    Detroit, Michigan (Dunham 2-pipe vacuum)
  • rmoore007ri
    rmoore007ri Member Posts: 45
    corrected maxitrol 2 stage regulator link

    Link is

    http://www.maxitrol.com/2stageregulators.html
This discussion has been closed.