Ductless heat Pumps that actually Heat

Paul MacDougall

I'm looking for a ductless system that can actually heat a room. My potential customer lives on the coast in Mass and would like to cool and heat a three season room, and stretch the seasons as deep as possible. I have dealt with the Mitsubishi units for cooling only with great success and I know they offer units that do heat as well but I want to hear from other installers about there experiences. Thanks guys.

Bob Bona_4

doing a job

today in fact, same scenario, in CT. Heat loss is 12,700. 180 sq ft back porch on piers being converted to "all" season. Not open to main house, only via a 3' door. Met w/ Mitsu rep who assured me that the FD12NA will deliver 13,700 at 17 outdoor. Below that, well, mileage may vary. Customer was present at meeting and is aware of performance parameters, and accepted them.

Last month I did a Fujitsu 12K HP and the outlet supply temp on heat was near 120 @ 68 out-remember, these things have no electric back up coils, it's all in the inverter tech...42 degrees cooling. Them's some serious numbers. I have a ton of respect for these little beasties. 22-23 SEER, practically silent both in and out, 410A, tax credit, and utility rebate. 25 SEER to come this fall.

Tony_57

Fujitsus work great BUT

they still look like they belong in a commercial setting. The Samsung Vivace heats down to 5 degrees and is black mirror finished. I ripped out my own central this year and have just started hanging the Vivaces. http://www.quietside.com/Quietside/

Bob Bona_4

pretty cool

stuff, thanks for the link. Black or white, the ductless evaps will never be invisible

I'm taking a closer look at the ducted models for some jobs coming up.

GREG LAUER

go daikin

go with the originator not the imitators. Daikin is great equipment.

Tony_57

Just about invisible

http://www.lghvac.com/products/products_list_models.asp?type_seq=5&cate_seq=16

I have never installed an LG but I have seen some of their other appliances and they seem nice. While I was looking at this web page I found a local wholesaler so I may have to take a closer look.

steve_29

Mini splits are wonderful, I use the heat pump in the fall and spring just to take the chill off in the room.
I installed a Fujitsu 15RLQ Heat pump and will be getting the rebate.
You may want to check to see which companies and units meet rebate requirements.
http://www.ceedirectory.org/ceedirectory/pages/hp/cee/Ductless-HPCEE.pdf

Paul MacDougall

What model Daikin should I be looking at. All good suggestions.

GREG LAUER

here is my choice

I dont know your load that would help but look at this.
Daikin's Quaternity series is the first in North America to offer one of the highest energy efficient (Up to SEER 22) heating and cooling solution with additional features for controlling humidity to a relative set point, along with an air cleaning function.
http://www.daikinac.com/residential/productsUnits20.asp?sec=products&page=55

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Fuji & Mitsu - 28-SEER units

22-SEER is getting left in the dust. Time to catch up(G).

28-SEER with 10- to 12-HSPF units that are good below zero-F for 80% or more of heating cap are rapidly becoming the norm.

Hard to keep up with all the changes(G)!

Steve O

ductless heat pump

Hope his name isnt N.E. I"ve given 3 estimates and his house doesnt have enough electricity-last estimate he tried to get me to do the electric also-under the table and he knows I'm not an electrican.(p.s. NE is aMULTI MILLIONARE!!!!)

GREG LAUER

im from ole miss

show me!
What Daikin has to unveil in the future will blow everyone away.
oh yeah can your new stuff hold up to a less than one tenth of one percent GLOBAL failure rate?

I guess you probably think geothermal is more eff than a vrv system. I can tell you that Daikin has a model going on with side by side schools. one is geo one is Daikin vrv. the watt meters do not lie Daikin school was 15% more energy eff last I got news on it.
Could argue this all day but I have more to do tonight than post.
It is America pick what you want but I am sticking with the inventor, originator, and leader. Not the cheapest on the market.

GREG LAUER

one more important thing

Daikin only lists the minimum SEER rating achieved at ARI. they are not like the rest who when at some point and temps reaches that majic number. a 15 seer Daikin will normally run in the 23 to 25 range so just think where their high eff stuff runs?
many manufactures are pulling the wool over the consumers eyes with their seer ratings.
They are allowed to say they are are 75 seer if at any point in the testing they reach it there is no alotted time or temp range it has to be held in.

Jack

Greg...

Your loyalty to your preferred brand is laudable, albeit a bit premature in this catagory of product. The changes all the manufacturers in this catagory are making are incredibly swift and it is a pleasure to watch such excellent technological advances. I represent Fujitsu and am thoroughly impressed with it. Perhaps you should try another brand. I think you would find something in it that you would like. Technically, I'll put a Fujitsu against a Daikin any day. Care to compare? Please, go to Fujitsugeneral.com and compare specs. As you look forward, Fujitsu, Daikin, Mitsu...they are all doing incredible things.

I live in New England. Prior to the introduction of the R410A inverter units if you bought a heat pump in this market I would have said, "What are you nuts?" Today,with the Inverters, if you don't buy the heat pump I will say, "What are you nuts?" I no longer sell them for cooling. I tell the contractor to sell it as heat and we will give the customer the cooling. I have a customer who lives in Bangor, ME and called me last Jan to tell me it was -5F at his house and his heat pump was blowing 103F air. I told him I didn't think it was supposed to do that, but we decided to take it;) A friend of mine in MA put in a dual 12 unit in his downstairs and a quad 9 in the upstairs bedrooms. I told him to use them for heat too. He called me in early June and told me he "had reduced his oil consumption by 43.6% and next season "I'm going to use them all the time" I'm really looking forward to seeing how well he can do now that he knows they really work.

One other thing about Daikin. I put in my first minisplit in 1978. My customer heard about it and told me about it. We found a Daikin unit and installed it. I couldn't believe how cool this thing was. However, Daikin, the company couldn't figure out how to do business in the States and one night all the Japanese got on an airplane and without announcement...flew back to Japan. Their customers, myself included, were quite surprised when they called the next day and no one was there. BTW, they did this twice!! Now that they own McQuay I guess they will stick around, but who knows, the third time is the charm!

Tony_57

They look nice

mechanically but they like many others are lacking in the style department. When your talking about hanging something on the livingroom wall, the woman of the house has the last say and the Samsung unit sells itself.

Jack

If thats the case

look at the Fujitsu multi's. You can mix and match the high wall units, the small cassettes or use the concealed ceiling air handlers. With the 2 and 3 ton condensing units you can get over 110 combinations of evaporators in the 9, 12 and 18kbtu range.

Bob Bona_4

goodness!

hard enough to stay on top of hydronic developments!

radmix

seer

I have been installing mini splits for some time now and have found that most of them do not qualify for the federal tax credits. The seer may be in the 20 range but the eer is in the low 8 range when you need an eer of 12. Most of the heads that qualify are only 9000 btu.

Unknown

One question

We install mini-split cooling only . None with heating yet . But that is going to change very soon .

But I have to ask ...... The homeowner who dropped his oil consumption by 43% . How much did his electric bill go up ?

Is it feasible to run a minisplit for heat most of the winter if you're paying around 20 cents a kilowatt hour ? Compared to burning the oil for heat ? I know ........ mileage may vary

Jack_44

Daikin after one year

The central part of the house is VRV-S with floor standing & wall-mounted units functioning as one zone. Additionally, six multi-splits (ductless & ducted mix) serve bedrooms & a study. This setup gives me great zone control.

We are have hot humid summers (>= 90* & 90%) and moderate winters (usually >= 15*, rarely -5* or so).

We're very happy with the equipment thus far. Expensive install, reasonable operating cost. Dead quiet. We dehumidify more than cool.

The leading brands all offer very similar performance. Just like boilers, professional installation & support should determine which brand you choose.

GREG LAUER

dare to compaire

Samsung unless they have booted up have very short vertical lineset capability. Last one we installed was a bit over 25 ft and found out it did not like it. It was tore out and replaced with Sanyo. Samsung/Quietside ect all have some translation issues the first few years the hit the states.
I do not think fujitsu has a vrv system let alone a heat recovery vrv system. everyone has a 2 port and 4 port unit nowadays but look at the lineset specs before you by. As for vrv systems Daikin is well over 3,000 ft of lineset. some others my also say that but then look at the distance you can go from the main run and I bet Daikin wins. The homeowner market has now what, 27 or more ductless manufactures to chose from so do your homework before you by. dont just listen to the seer ratings and how much money you can save it will do you no good if the lineset is marginal and it drops compressors due to oil shortage. If you want to talk super tech that is comming Daikin has a Convienance pack overseas that will run your mini mart on one cascadeing system. all of the refrigeration, a/c heating can be done with one unit running at extream seer ratings. Things like this in our future are what we need. Like I said Daikin will be a name here in the U.S that will not go away. oh, by the way Mr. Fijitsu what is your global failure rate?

Jack

Not sure how many

people can register using the same name but the Jack registering the "Daikin after one year" post is not mine!

I have no idea what the global failure rate is Mr Daikin but it is damned low in the US.

I suppose we should get on the same playing field. I'm talking residential and light comm mini-splits. You are talking vrv. Totally different world equipment wise.

Tony_57

I checked out the Fujitsu

web site. Thanks, I see they just added a small ceiling cassette 9000 for a multi system. This is exactly what Ive been looking for for those second floor bedrooms with accessible attic above. I have installed a few Fujitsus and I have to say I havent had any trouble with them.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

totally mystified by the tone of these posts

Not sure I can understand the sniping taking place between posts! Daikin, Mitsu & Fuji all make very good units & there's more than enough room for all to play. Sales are increasing exponentially each year & we sell a ton of minis ourselves.

Imagine you were a potential consumer visiting here who was contemplating a mini instead of replacing their low-SEER clunker central system. Sales presentations based on tearing down other equipment brands or competitors typically fail to sway consumers.

Promoting Inverter technology is good for everyone & it doesn't matter to me which of those three brands my customers want. I'll promote the Inverter model every time. Bottom line - I'm looking out for my customer's best fit that will save them the most energy while delivering comfort and reliability.

Better hold onto your hats because all of the central system mfgrs have Inverter models being beta tested in real-world conditions. That's going to create a fundamental shift in the overall market.

You want a real eye-opener? Research window units (I did for a Consumers' Digest article) and check out their SEER & EER & decible ratings. Check out Haier Energy Star rated models if no others. I attempted to persuade the editors to include mini-splits, but it was an A/C-only article & the window units had it all over the mini A/C-only models - at a fraction of the cost and with features that would surprise most contractors (like me) who have ignored what we often called "window-shakers".

GREG LAUER

not sur I UNDERSTAND THE SNIPING????

Wait Dave, some started this looking for information. I posted my choice you then responded with "Fuji & Mitsu - 28-SEER units



22-SEER is getting left in the dust. Time to catch up(G).

28-SEER with 10- to 12-HSPF units that are good below zero-F for 80% or more of heating cap are rapidly becoming the norm.

Hard to keep up with all the changes(G)! "
so is it that hard to see where it all started under your camo? Bang! you shot the first snipe. I would guess it is because these are the brands you sell. Fine I sell Daikin but my belief in this product runs deep. So much so when we renovated our offices we tore out the old conventinal system and installed a full blown Daikin Vrv so we practice what we preach. Does it cost more yeah over a one to one or two or three port. But go back to what I said before. Daikin has a LESS THAN ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT FAILURE RATE! Can others boast this? how long have the others been around? You see the best seer at the bet price is not the way I choose equipment I chose what is the best long term investment for my customers this failure rate means alot with rising costs or repair. Anyone looked inside some of these little wall hung water heaters? my fat fingers couldnt get in there to service it! anyone size one yet because a homeowner said they wanted one because they saw on the internet....only to find out they needed more than one or more than there gas line going to the home could handle? I go with what I CAN TRUST and put my name behind and that is it! so sniper I am not but you shot first Dave.

Bob Bona_4

if you knew Dave

personally, which I do, you would know there was no malice behind those statements, Greg. I'm sure he meant it how I took it- it's incredible how far and fast the mini market is going these days. And it truly is-I'm still reeling at the concept of low 20's SEER, now we are seeing north 20's stuff..wow!

I agree with Dave, however, that while brand loyalty is nice, there is a danger in fanaticsm. When you get the "Ford vs. Chevy" thing going to a feverish pitch, it gets old quick.

Mark Eatherton

The BIGGEST question that remains in my mind is....

When the heck are these people going to incorporate inverter heat pump technology into the GSHP equipment? If and when they do, I will be one of the first people to jump on the band wagon.

In fact, if any HP manufacturers are reading this, I am looking for a willing partner to test VSR compressors on my current project...

ME

Paul MacDougall

I cant find any specs on the Daikin models on there website, just options and benefits. Am I missing something.

Paul MacDougall

I cant find any specs on the Daikin models on there website, just options and benefits. Am I missing something.

GREG LAUER

website

what specs do you need?
www.daikinac.com
enter commercial or resid
look under documents and manuels
or email me direct.