Copper tubing question

Unknown

In Canada it can,, although it never should have been allowed, (3rd party certified) what a joke!<BR>If the budget allows stay with type L,,, you won`t be sorry.<BR>Seen type M spring leaks after 2 years on potable.<BR>Little difference from M to DWV.<BR><BR>Dave

Bob Forand

Copper tube code question

I am in NH and I am trying to find where code states what type of copper needs to be used on plumbing. I was asked today if it is required to use copper "L" on water systems. I could not locate it in the International Plumbing Code 2000 book.

Can copper "M" be used in plumbing systems ?

MikeyB

Where did you get your info?

In Canada, the National Plumbing Code states Type L Copper minimum for Potable water.

Unknown

Really?

Your wrong old man!

Dave

Unknown

C`mon Scott K

Still digging?,, I have a BC Codebook if it helps.

Dave

Unknown

What`s going-on?

Bedtime for me is soon,, have to catch you tomorrow(if you have anything),, take care Scott!

Dave

MikeyB

Type L is the minimum

Did I studder? (I'm a Ticketed Journeyman Plumber BTW).

Unknown

Again,, REALLY????

Been a journeyman since 1970,, not too sure about BC codes(until I dig-out the book),, but Ontario codes are type M!
Who are you trying to impress? HMMM.
Studder?,, give me a break!

Dave

MikeyB

Read the Code!

The 2005 National Plumbing Code of Canada says Type 'L' as the minimum for Potable Water.

The 2006 British Columbia Building Code, Section 7, PLumbing (adopted/amended from the previous 2005 National Plumbing Code) says Type 'L' as the minimum for Potable Water.

Not trying to impress anyone, mainly trying to see where you are coming from with your information. I have only been in the trade for just over 5 years, and I received my Inter-Provincial Red Seal early last year, but I can tell you I've seen a lot of Plumbers who have been in the trade 10 years (or more), where it would be more accurate to say they have 1 year of experience, 10 times.

Did you get your Inter-Provincial Red Seal or do you just have the Ontario ticket as I know Ontario is one of the only Provinces that offers a seperate ticket?

Uni R_2

Toronto is 99% Type M

Toronto is 99% Type M for domestic and it lasts forever here.

MikeyB

Toronto

Well Toronto IS the center of the Universe isn't it?

Where I come from Type 'M' is relegated to hydronic heating systems, and for Pressure relief valve piping.

We obviously use Type L were it is spec'd and some zealous Engineers seem to think that are doing the community a service by spec'ing Type K for hot lines on some commercial jobs.

Unknown

and.. is there?

Is there type 'L' and type 'M' copper fittings where I see most of the problems are... its all depends the ph factor and the sulfies (sp) in water that reacts to copper pipings.

Unknown

Scott K

I stand corrected, as far as the BC code goes,, I glanced at the wrong column.
In Ontario type M "is" acceptable as you can see.
And yes, I do have the inter provincial "red seal", but anyone can make a mistake.

You say "I have only been in the trade for just over 5 years",, perhaps in time you will learn an "error" does not mean the end of the world. ;-)

Dave

Charlie from wmass

Bob in mass it is L or thicker for potable. I have seen M on many pre code or none inspected jobs last for 30 or 40 years. That said I have some homes with L pitting through in 5 years. L is better but if the water is harsh Pex is even better. Copper is my prefered pipe but some places it has a very short life.

KevinCorr

I never use M. It is not that much cheaper. Figure how long it will be there.

hot_rod

If the fluid

inside the copper, behaves, and the installer follows proper assembly techniques, and the water meets the spec for the material then M copper should last many, many years. In domestic water and hydronic applications.

The problems indicated here so far are NOT caused by the material (copper)

I suspect ph and other water quality issues are the main cause of pinholes and corrosion.

Excessive velocity is certainly a big issue in DHW recirc and some hydronic installations.

Another often over looked problem is the installer. What % of installers ream every connection properly, raise your hands! or ream at all. Ever pull the tube out of the fitting to make up for a short cut. That provides a sharp turbulance inducing wear point.

Glycol gone bad is another huge cause of material failures, copper and aluminum.

Counting on an extra few thousands of wall thickness does not "correct" the actual cause of copper tube degradation.

What we have learned to do is "mask" the problem with the use of plastics Same with the ole O2 ingress issue that continues to haunt the hydronic industry.

With this thinking maybe we should consider going back to thick walled galvanized pipe for water supply. Provide more wear surface instead of addressing the cause and not the symptom.

hr

KevinCorr

Good post Hot Rod. All true, well put.

I avoid M for other reasons.
1-It is so thin it is often banged up in shipping, on truck pipe racks and on the job site. Some people install it anyway.
2- It is so soft that many guys cone it way in with the tubing cutter. Even if you are careful you have a more inward end than with pipe that has some body. You can spend more time trying to ream that but you are trying to ream more than the cut edge itself. A large number of M joints end up not having the smooth joint you want, even when the guy did ream it.
3- I just don't like flimsy gear, and M copper is just not a great product.

bob young

PAUL BUNYAN GONNA KICK YER BUTT, DAVE

WOW , YOU ACTUALLY MADE A MISTAKE , DAVE ??? DINT THINK IT POSSIBLE !! I FIGURED YOU WERE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT BUT NEVER WRONG !!

Unknown

Hey bob,,

I HEAR ya!!
Good thing we both understand the "Paul Bunyan" bit LOL.
Yes, I`m overly headstrong at times,, but not too proud to admit I made a mistake.
How are you old friend??, I have about another 3 days on this steam re-pipe, electrician is due Tuesday.

BTW-Cabbaged an old Honeywell T85 and the clock STILL WORKS, Canadian made, registered 1957.

I`ll post some pics. ;-)

Dave

bob young

ANTIQUE GOODIES

NICE HONEYWELL. I GOT ONE HUNG IN MY OFFICE FROM THE THIRTIES.WHEN WE GO ON OUR TRIP YOU CAN PASS THRU NYC & CHECK IT OUT.

Plumdog_2

Good M is good enough

but you may get hold of cheaply made bad tube with very thin walls; a guy should wiegh it I suppose to check the thickness. Same goes for all copper types. "Hardware" store tubing comes right from third-world makers; and I have seen some branded by very well-known and respected companies that is very inferior. And these days the wholesalers and "Hardware" outfits often sell the same stuff. You can tell by the feel if it's good, it will be heavy.

hot_rod

M is certainly not thinner than

fin tube baseboad element copper! That has proven to last 50 years plus. And it can, and is cut, reamed, and assembled on a daily basis.

Sharp, oiled, tubing cutters, free from flux gum, help a lot with the burr factor. Or a chop saw.

I like, and prefer type L also, but mainly so I can use the REMS Curvo bender to save fittings.

When copper was sky high I kept some M for relief lines, long straight runs, etc. Saved the L for the bends and art projects

hr

Unknown

I agree with others,

Type M is acceptable in Ontario(as I said), but if you priced a new house in Ontario using type L, you would lose the job.
I know "L" is better,, but it`s over twice the price at most wholesalers.

Dave

World Plumber

M tubing

The 2006 National code book Page 408 Water service pipe must have a minimum working pressure of 160 psi (P2904.4) wATER DISTRIBUTION PIPE AFTER A PRESSURE REDUCER WITH A MAXIMUM WORKING PRESSURE OF 80 PSI must have a minimum working pressure of 100psi at 180 degrees F.
The area I've been working in they want type L for all water piping except on a well system with 60 psi or less operating pressure. Our policy domestic water use type L for heating system use type M.