Getting a Grip On Our Steam System

Bruce Beavis

We are at Belden and Lincoln Park West in Lincoln Park.

Our mechanical contractor Hayes services our boiler and this setting comes from them.

The more reading on this topic I do, I am beginning to suspect that when the current boiler was installed ~ 30 years ago, the job may have been botched and the pressure was upped to 5 psig to compensate.

Also, folklore here suggests that one needs higher pressure to push the steam all the way to the end of the system, i.e. 100 yards and up three flights of stairs. Obviously wrong!

Bruce Beavis

Getting a Grip on a COOP Steam System

As a recently elected member of the coop board of a 24 unit c1915 building here in Chicago I am working to get a better handle on our steam heating system.

Having read the website and bought Dan's book, we plan on having the system balanced, replacing the plethora of different air vents, and replacing our time-clock control with a thermostatic sensor-driven control.

Over the years we have been consistently over-heating the building with the result that many owners have removed a number of radiators, - some have 11 and some have 3.

Is there an intelligent rule of thumb for a minimum amount of EDR/square foot or BTU/square foot that needs to be maintained in each unit.

I assume that life would be easier and we would save money if everyone have a somewhat similar ratio of radiators (and kept the windows shut in the winter).

Anyone else out there faced a similar issue?

Steamhead (in transit)

We have done several of these

click on the link at the bottom of this post to see one of them. We're located in Baltimore, unfortunately, but there are some great steam men in your area.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

oil-2-4-6-gas

in NY too far away --there are many MANY -things to be looked at with your system --you definitely need a pro to get in there and COMPLETELY go over the System --all piping and radiators in All units --if you get someone in there and right away just wants to sell you a control you have the wrong guy

boilerman jc NYC

your problem

What type of steam piping configuration do you have in the building? Venting is a key factor. I highly doubt it, but does the system run on a vacuum? Does the Boiler Room have a Boiler Feed Tank? These are all questions to be answered before we can help you. We install alot of Boilers in NYC and 95% of the buildings use a "Heat-Timer" Control. Work great! The most popular is the "MPC Platinum" Series. If the building is on a vacuum you must use a "SRC Platinum Control". Go to "Heat-Timer's" website and get educated. Hope this helps!

Bruce Beavis

We have located a good local steam heating resource here in Chicago to help us, having used a large national mechanical outfit for years who ran our system on 5 lb pressure with radiators hissing and spitting.

The biggest issue in a coop building like ours is getting sufficient internal consensus to let the guy do his job properly and then taking his recommendations seriously.

Our current 4.4 MMBTU boiler is ~30 years old and we have never lost a tube or had a single maintenance issue or outage. Unfortunately, our building is very concerned that this boiler is on the verge of catastrophic failure and that we must replace it before the autumn (or at least buy another boiler as a "back-up".

Back to the original question, do we have a prayer of acheiving any kind of heat balance with widely varying EDR/square foot in the different apartments? radiators

Steamhead (in transit)

You'd have to

fix the steam distribution problems first. Each radiator must get steam at about the same time for the system to balance.

The fun begins with varying radiation in the apartments. But here's your chance to do it right: do (or have your pro do) a heat-loss calculation on every room in the place and size the radiation to that.

I bet you have some oversized radiators. Curing this will increase comfort and reduce fuel consumption. That's a win-win if there ever was one.

Is this a one-pipe or two-pipe system?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

boilerman jc NYC

You originally said some apt owners removed radiators. This being said, as long as the piping is stll in tact and the proper radiators can be installed to match the heat loss, a professional "steam" heating contractor should be able to assist you. It sounds like you have a Scotch Marine or Fire Box Boiler. I have seen these boilers last well over 30 years in buildings in NYC. A monthly chemical treatment plan along with proper maintenance goes a long way with these boilers. Before you replace the boiler have a non-destructive sonar test done on the boiler shell (if it is a Scotch Marine boiler).This will determine the integrity of the steel.
I forgot to add. Tell the Board to put Politics aside. Steam Problems and Politics do not mix well together.

Bruce Beavis

Answers

We are on a one-pipe system.

Unfortunately, politics seems to dominate these questions in the building and only once one has marshaled uncontravertable evidence, can truth edge out a narrow win.

We completed a big masonry restoration job a couple of years ago, have done a lot of work on windows and have a new EPDM roof with insulation under. Although we have "triple brick" masonry and will have a hard time insulating walls, we have significantly improved our overall building envelope.

Outside of doing a whole building simulation, how do I attack a heat loss study for an individual room or apartment? Where can I look for documentation or guidance?

Bruce Beavis

Timeclock Control & Condensate Return - Fact or Fiction?

Our current control is a timeclock with an outside air sensor. When the outside air is below 55F, the boiler fires once per hour.

To the extent that there is no internal thermostat to satify, what causes the boiler to cut out? Is that time-driven as well.

One theory is that it is somehow related to the amount of condensate returning to boiler. If the amount of condensate is above a certain amount per time period, the boiler continues to fire. The local folklore says that if residents open their windows to cool off their units in the wintertime, this only signals the boiler to produce more steam.

Also, what is it that will drive the amount of steam produced in a given amount of time?

Bruce Beavis

We went through 67,000 therms of gas last year to heat ~75,000 square feet of conditioned space. I figure there is at least a third of that is savings to be had by getting our system running better.

Bruce Beavis

It's a Scotch marine boiler

Bruce Beavis

Our building is three storied with a full conditioned basement and the units are in six separate tiers with separate street entrances.

The piping goes from the boiler and makes a loop along the outside wall of each basement. From there, risers go up to the three apartments above.

I believe we have a boiler feed tank and nopt sure about the vacuum.

I'm reading trhrough the Heat Timer website. thanks for the lead.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Your issues are very common and usually very fixable

I am working with a 16 unit Coop with one pipe steam on Chicago's North side right now to get thier system balanced,more efficient and in good working order. Last winter,using data supplied by the board, I went through and calculated the proper btu requirements of the boiler and adjusted boiler input, measured and resized the main vents,found out their thermostatic heating control was going bad and got thier piping insulated. This eliminated nearly all of thier issues of underheating(and some overheating) and smoothed out operation of the boiler. Over 2/3 of the units are now comfortable. This morning I am reviewing temperature and leaking air vents/valves and gurgling/banging issues on a room by room and unit by unit basis so we can address these issues. Addressing these issues should improve boiler/system life and take care of the last overheating issues in some units and save more big dollars on the fuel bills. I expect I will be spending a few days working on thier place sometime in August and we may be able to get to your place then too. I also will be in Aurora in the next week or too, so I'll be well into Chicago then. Give me a call and we can talk. I am in the office today trying to catch up.

Boilerpro

1 815 857-2339

Bruce Beavis

One pipe.

In terms of reducing the size of radiators, one can remove sections?

As an example, our bedroom broils all winter long unless we are shutting off the main valve to the radiator in there at night. I know that this is not best practice, but the other current alternative is opening the window to let the heat out.

FJL

Politics . . .

You're politics comment is so true. I live in a four-unit co-op apt. We're all friends. But trying to get anything done, sometimes, requires a hurculean effort. They have to be shown the truth six ways to Sunday, and even then, they know somebody else who told them something different, and then you have to start all over again. And god forbid the result is not exactly as you said it would be.

Unknown

I installed a tekmar

I installed a Tekmar 269 control with 2 sensors. After I replaced/ installed main ventings and radiator ventings, no more open windows and much reduced gas usage bill.
Where is this building located in Chicago and WHY are you running the system at high 5psi?

Unknown

lower the pressure

The faster the steam will move with proper ventings. I've seen the others work and can't say too much about them...

Bruce Beavis

Thanks. I checked and we have the Heat-Timer EPU-CH model control installed in 1979.

Thanks for lead. I'm reading the site now.

Kool Rod

Just wanted to point out the obvious, that heating controls since 1979 have advanced enormously due to the use of computer microprocessors and sensors.

You mentioned condensate - some of the controls measure the heat of the returning condensate as an indication that the "warm up" period has been ended and that steam is being produced and has reached throughout the system. At the end of the "warm up" period the computer begins a timed cycle which can be varied by the computer responding to other sensor inputs. As there are different warm up period lengths depending on temperature (inside and out) and whether the system is starting from a cold start vs a warm system, the computerized system has advantages over a solely fixed timered system that can't adjust for the different situations.

You also might want to read up on TRVs (Thermostatic Radiator Valves). TVRs are made for hot water and steam and you want to make sure that you are looking at the ones specifically designed for 1 pipe steam. Single pipe steam TRVs have a vacuum breaker.

I see Boiler Pro has posted above and left his phone number. If I was in the Chicago area I'd definitely contact him and if he was too busy I'm sure he would give you a reference to another good steam pro. You need someone who is really good with steam to straighten out your system. In the long run it will save you a lot of money and you will finally have a comfortable heating system.

- Rod

D107

One way to triumph over politics

is to get a few different estimates. (HO here, former coop pres.) By all means meet with the steam contractors you said you found, but Boilerpro is by reputation one of the top steam people in the country and if he's in your neighborhood, absolutely get him to look at your system.

You'll be able to come up with a likely dollar savings per year times 10-15 years (don't forget to factor projected oil or gas increases) so your board will see it's like lowering your mortgage payments. Plus the life of the boiler will be extended (more savings), plus comfort. Maybe even connect indirect hot water heaters and save even more.

Good luck,

David

Bruce Beavis

David,

Thanks for your message. Spoke with Boilerpro over the weekend. Good advice. I think putting together a proper business case with a good appreciation of the plan, risks, cost, benefits and investment returns should sell it.

Thanks again

Bruce Beavis

Rod,

I reached out to Boilerpro over the weekend and we had a good chat. Trying to get him over to our building in the next few weeks for a walk-through.

I have been reading about the TRV's and they look pretty interesting. In your experience, would you equip an entire building with them and what would budget in terms of unit cost?

D107

Also

another point is that with Boilerpro's help you can learn to do alot of routine steam maintenance yourself. When I read Dan's Lost Art book years ago it enabled me to balance the venting system reasonably well for our two buildings by being on the phone with residents in the other building to time when steam arrived in the riser of the farthest apt etc.

You also may uncover chimney conditions or fresh air intake sizing issues e.g. that by correcting now will save you money down the road. Hopefully your owners are thinking more green than was the case years ago.

Best,

David

Kool Rod

When I first read about the people in your complex opening windows and removing radiators I thought that obviously they haven't heard about TRVs. TRVs can help reduce overheating but it is also important to understand they don't increase heat!

That's why I don't think you'd want to install a TRV on every radiator in the building. Most people don't understand how they work and think, "Goodie! I now have my own adjustable thermostat!" Soon you get complaints of "My thermostat is broken. I turned it up but didn't get any heat!"

Before using TRVs you need to have your steam system balanced. It may then be beneficial to use a few TRVs selectively on certain radiators to further achieve a desired comfort level. I see that you already know that you can't "throttle down" an inlet valve on a one pipe steam radiator. However you can use a TRV to accomplish the same thing. One place I use them is for shutting down unoccupied areas of a big house during the winter. You can set the TRV to the minimum setting (about 42 deg. F) which keeps the room above freezing.

Here's a piece Dan did on TRVs. Read about 3/4 of the way down the page and you'll find 2 paragraphs on 1 pipe steam TRVs

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?id=101

I was glad to hear`you were able to connect with Boilerpro.
Like David said, he's very highly respected in the steam community. One thing you will find is that the more you learn about steam, the more you realize that very few heating people really understand it! That's why it is so important to get a real "steam pro" that does!

It doesn't sound as though your problems are all that serious. You need a proper boiler inspection to see where that stands. Since regular maintenance seems to have been on it you may get a pleasant surprise. The rest would seem to be just getting the system put back together properly and having it tuned up- good venting, balancing and modern controls. Steam is a really comfortable trouble free system when you get it working right.

David made a good point. Learning about steam you can do a lot of routine maintenance yourself and know when you really need a steam pro. This can save you a lot in the long run.

- Rod

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Kool Rod and David....

I am both flattered and humbled by your remarks. You both are obviously quite knowledgable about steam and the support of fellow steamheads like you folks really brightens my day.
I also agree with all you have said. The coop I am working with is definitely "green" oriented and have taken a very sensible approach to applying thier beliefs. Start by improving your current systems so they will function efficiently and properly and then begin to look at other more expensive possibilities (such as solar water heating). The cost to benefit and cost to payback ratio of improving most steam systems is so incredibly good it is shocking how long systems are allowed to continue to operate in a handicapped state. The financial payback times are typically measured in months, not years, for many improvements, and somtimes even in days. Along with these financial gains (and for owners in which this is their primary residence, the gains are essentially tax-free income), the elimination of years of discomfort and system noise are even greater.
Chicago is very good place to be nowadays, as it is a leader in the "green" evolution, along with a number of leading manufacturers recently moving into in the area. My alma mater, IIT, has been working toward these goals for decades and now is seeing rapid progess. Loyola has also jumped in with their new building and groups like the coop I have had the pleasure of working with.

Boilerpro



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

nicholas bonham-carter

steam improvements

if i were in your position, i would get the approval [or not even if i had to do it secretly myself] of the condo board to have a good annual service of the boiler done by someone well versed in steam, instead of the old crew. this would include the cleaning of the burner, checking controls, measuring/replacing/increasing main air vents, and putting a good low pressure gauge [0-2 PSI gaugestore.com] on the same pigtail as the pressuretrol. i think you will find the pressuretrol to be inoperative, and therefore needing to be replaced with a vaporstat. when you have the pressure set down to the ideal 8 OUNCES, any other steam distribution problems will become more noticeable, and can be corrected at that time. likely you will see the removed rads going back in, the comfort level going up, and the fuel use going down.

until you decide which boiler control to use, you could always install a honeywell visionpro with remote sensor in the coldest area of the bldg. and the "head" in a closet accessible only to the person in charge.

i would guess that this service would cost less than your present gas bill. it would be important not to announce that you will be reducing the pressure, as many people will think they are being deprived, when as we know they are being over stresed.

in the unlikely instance you have to replace the boiler [instead of reparing it] i would advise a lo-hi-lo fire burner, or a dual boiler setup. both boilers on until "steam has arrived", then firing 1 to keep it on the boil.

when all the deferred maintainance issues are sorted out, you won't believe how you ever put up with the previous noise and discomfort.--nbc

Bruce Beavis

Nicolas,

Than ks for the input. We had a board meeting tonight and are off to a good start.