Mystery Trap (GN Homeowner guy)

Steamhead (in transit)

but it's too hard to see in the pic, whether there's room for that. Dripping that into a wet return would have been the simplest way, and may still be if we can avoid the doorway mentioned and get to a return point that way.

GN, don't even think about converting that system to hot-water unless you like living dangerously. Those conversions tend to leak, sometimes rather badly, which would damage your house. Also your radiators might be to small to heat the house with hot water. These are but two of many pitfalls and that's why our company doesn't do these conversions.

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TonyBal_2

Mystery Trap (Q from GN Homeowner)

This a follow-up to the Two Pipe Vapor --- Dunham Home heating System thread below.

I met with my steam pro today and he was happy to have the advance work that I worked on prior to our meeting. He is a very good boiler man I think and a disciple of DH. They are hard to find west of Mississippi.

Anyway, one area that troubled him and an area I was confused about was the fourth trap in the basement earlier described as the “hidden trap,” An Illinois Engineering Corp “Thermo” No. 1 trap.

This system was built around 1929 and I found an advert for the Thermo trap from a 1918 magazine. My pro mentioned that they typically are to lie vertical so that “dirt does not lodge or lie on it” per 1918 advertisement.

I cut away the sheetrock to get the attached photos and so he could get better access.

This trap appears to be original and is unlike any other trap in my system.

But there has been some work done here since the 1929 install (but long ago as it was sheet rocked over) as the short 12” section of pipe and elbow is newer looking for sure.

Were the original dead guys trying to get around a strange set-up because the steam pipe blocked a better route for this (crossover??) trap?

I asked my pro how they would have installed something that was so obviously flawed? Or did they?

Per Illinois Thermo A photo:

The return pipe on the upper right, closest to camera, goes to the boiler (to camera’s left). This pipe also travels further out of camera to the right of photo.

The return pipe to the back left of the photo only goes to the right; it dead-ends at the point seen in the photo(s). There is a scale pocket below it there.

My heating pro did not think this section was done correctly for a bunch of reasons that were over my head…

He is going to test it once the boiler is fired up and we’ll hopefully know more. This set-up is about 20 feet away from the boiler and below ceiling rads and large livingroom rads. The living room rads have the (incorrect) vents on the two pipe rads that got me started on this investigation (and to the credit of Lost Art).

So I realize you are limited by just looking at a photo, but does this seem like an obvious mistake?

Any comments appreciated.

Thank you!

GN –Homeowner

PS: when ordering a new Hon Vaporstat L408J there are 4 versions. 1009 1017 1025 and 1033. How should I pick?
Curently I have an old Hon Pressuretrol.

Steamhead (in transit)

That's definitely wrong

and I think you can see why. The horizontal pipe running below the steam main cannot drain out, so water stands in it like the U-bend under a sink. Air cannot get past that standing water, so whatever that pipe is "returning" can't vent air thru the dry return.

BTW, just what is that pipe returning from? Maybe it's dripping the end of a steam main or branch?

Is there a wet return (at or near floor level) below that point? If so, you could drip that low point into it, and the air could pass thru. You might not even need that Illinois trap......

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gerry gill_2

Weird one..-Frank, do you think

that that ''dirtleg'' once dropped to a wet return?

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TonyBal_2

sigh

thanks guys. I was afraid you would say that. geez, hard to believe someone would try to pull that off? it looks original work FCO.

you confirmed my pros comments and now I understand the problem. (one more vote for pumped hot water? returns have to be bigger pipes perhaps?)

I don't know if its dripping off the end of a steam branch. I guess my guy will do some testing and will figure it out.

My hope is it that it is supporting a relatively minor rad or rads. maybe the ceiling rad in the rec room. never worked very well. or what was once a ceiling rad in the bath (now gone). perhaps they were afterthoughts for the dead guys.

Question. Under the current "wrong" design, is it possible to (single pipe-Like) air vent the orphan rads that this clogged "U-Bend" pipe supported with a single pipe vent, but then ALSO use my main vent as designed for the rest of the (ventless) rads in the house house??

I'm guessing the answer is no. that the condensate has to go somewere and will crash into steam, etc??

First thing i guess is to figure out what rads this little deadend return pipe supported.

Thanks guys!

GN Homeowner

TonyBal_2

another Q

I can now see how air would be blocked. But could the "U Bend" pipe be used to exit condensate/water?? enough gravity to push conensate out (to right in pic).

Then place an air vent on effected rads??

No wet return below. doorway to the left.

GN

Glen

which pipe is which?

and is the trap inlet from the side or bottom? The comment "returns need to be bigger" - is a problem. returns generally are smaller. please clarify.

Paul Fredricks_9

Frank

Could he repipe that area? I see that the big pipe in the pic is blocking things, but what if he went up to so there would be a pipe above and below the big pipe. The bottom one to handle condensate, the top to handle air. Like going around a doorway.

Just a thought.

Unknown

Interesting thought,,

Frank/Gerry,,, could this be a bottom-inlet type trap?
Is the tailpiece/nut not usually on the inlet side?
If so, that would answer why its there perhaps?
Both pipes appear to be the same height, and I wonder what is above that other(higher) T on the left side.

Dave

Glen Aspen_2

my thoughts too -

if it is indeed a bottom inlet - then we are looking at a end of main dirt pocket and trap assembly, in which case the piping arrangement makes sense.

TonyBal_2

reply

the flow appears to run "backwards" ie into the bottom of the trap and out the side.

my "returns need to be bigger" comment was from something I heard re conversion from steam to pumped hot water...

Thank you Glen.

GN

TonyBal_2

don't jump

Wife yells at homeowner to come in off the window ledge...

Yes both pipes are same heigth.

Flow seems to into the "bottom" of inlet and out the side to the pipe on the right. This pipe (on photo upper right) slopes sligtly to the right and off camera, and is part of a major long return I think.

I can try to get another photo above T on left hand side. I think just a pipe shoots straight back. dead ends at the T on left of photo.

Frank, thanks re hot water comment. I was not crazy about idea. From some insane reason, I am trying to keep house "original."

What's the best way to tell if we are looking at an
"end of main dirt pocket and trap assembly" ??

Thanks!

GN Homeowner

PS: some info re Illinois Thermo Trap below...

Below quote is from 1918 Heating and Ventilating Magazine so not sure it is applicable to my trap that would have been ten years later.

“Illinois Thermo, described as the “super trap” for vacuum, vapor and modulating systems, are featured in a new booklet…special attention is called to the vertical seat of this trap so that dirt does not lodge or lie on it. Attention is also called to the fact that the diaphragm closes against the steam and not in the steam, so that it does not have to wait until the water condenses in the radiator and cools off before opening. The diaphragm is made with concave sides to give flexibility without strain on the diaphragm. It has ball and cone seat. The trap is made of phosphor bronze of 90,000 lbs. tensile strength and the bodies are of steam brass…” end quote.

I do recall something about “vertical” placement and this was echoed by my boiler pro.

This trap I think is unique in my system. The others are 1E crossovers (3) and Marsh Reflux (17) on my rads.

Steamhead (in transit)

Follow the pipe

and see what it hooks up to. If it drains the steam supply, the trap needs to be there to keep steam out of the dry return. If it drains the return side of the radiators, the trap doesn't belong there at all since the rads already have traps.

Knowing the answer to this will determine the proper repair method.

"Steamhead"

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TonyBal_2

thanks all

I remember somewhere in DHs Lost Art book comment that one may find a trap at the end of a steam main. I did not know what he was talking about and little concerned because I did not see one. Although I saw my 3 "crossover" traps above the boiler.

so maybe this is a trap at the end of a main. even though it is not insulated? I will follow Steamhead's advice and "follow the pipe."

Dripping to wet return problematic I think due to doorway. But I will pass on to my pro. It may be possible to continue to run the dead end pipe to the left of photo. but will involve some serious demo work and old insulation bothering. I may look at it if/when I remodel area if the design is flawed.

Thanks guys. like going to school here. starting to sink in a bit.

I have bought some "bricks" to cover tuition...

GN Homeowner

Mad Dog_2

thats what i think too

It must have dripped in to a wet return at some point....do the returns look original??? Some unwitting person could have disconnected it when returns were done....you know the type: "we don,t need this...cap it. Mad dog

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TonyBal_2

interesting wow

It is possible the doorway (unseen at left of photo) was an afterthought. Or atleast after the steam engineer's work. The doorway arch has lath & plaster that I assumed was original but may have been after for sure. The texture on area of doorway suggests some tampering for sure.

I recall the original plans DO NOT have a doorway there. Orig I think the whole area was one big open basement with exposed piping, Then I imagine not long after new build someone put in a room and kitchen to rent out (sadly the work looks like a DIY). All of piping has been sheetrocked over now.

The counter to that is it seemed to me that all of the yellowish piping was "original". This yellow paint? wipes off easily. But that is no proof of anything. It could have been painted after someone changed the original drip to the a wet line.

You can see the short pipe that is not yelowish definitely not orginal.

Now that you mention it, my pro yesterday noted a capped 1/2" elbow pipe that was near ceiling at the top of my boiler, amidst the other 3 crossover traps that feed down into same pipe for venting to Dunham AE. We wondered what that went to origionally. Perhaps that it part of this puzzle.

How would a system work that had an "end of main trap" that was messed up like this. Maybe that also helps explain why several rads are vented on the second floor?

GN Homeowner

Steamhead (in transit)

That capped pipe

might have been for the air line coming from a Return Trap/Alternating Receiver.

If those vented rads feed into or are fed from the line going thru that Illinois trap, it definitely could explain why they didn't heat well.

The plot thickens......

"Steamhead"

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TonyBal_2

some comfort maybe

Although this is still a blur to me. I am now getting some comfort that the original dead guy likely did not put together the mystery and wrong Illinois trap setup "U pipe" pictured. I was beginning to question the rest of the whole "system" job he may have done.

I'll try to post some pictures later.

your detective work has been amazing.

thanks guys.

GN

TonyBal_2

Practical to reconnect pipe that was deadened?

The theory that this pipe work (Illinois Trap and U Pipe area) not being original design is supported by the original house plans that had no door originally.

see Old Remod Photo with the door add on. This turned half the basement into livable area/apt. Perhaps the DYI pulled out the rest of the pipe so it would not conflict with the small arch (not seen in photo) in the new door?

In the photo you can see area of sheetrock I have cut away to give my pro visibility. I put a black line below the drip pipe that corresponds to laser level of a near pipe in the boiler room (to left in photo).

Close-up photo shows Mystery Deadend and Illinois trap and black line I drew that corresponds to a level point in boiler room.

The photo Tap Point B shows a black elctrical tape that corresponds to center of deadend pipe in other room. I was curious where the pipe would hit if extended.

The length is about 18 feet to other deadend pipe.

The small black arrow at the bottom of the elbow joint corresponds to the Level Point black line in other room.

About 9 inches upward from the arrow/line to center of dead end pipe or the black tape in boiler rm. Black tape is 40 inches above boiler water line.

I guess I would need about a 1 inch drop from other room and that is not included. There are some insul pipes around that may make this tricky.

I am trying to see if I can connect a new pipe back up to a pipe near the boiler and I have no idea what I am looking at.

Tap Point A photo is wider shot of area above boiler. black tape in upper left corner. near crossover trap.

Elbow capped photo shows mystery orphan 1/2" elbow capped above series of stacked pipes that come from crossover traps and vent through main Dunham AE. not much room between joists -- about 8 inches.

any thoughts welcome.

Thanks

GN Homeowner

Unknown

I still say,

That is some sort of reverse of conventional trap, and is there for another reason other than doorways or walls that have been added.
We have all tried to help but there is only so much we can say(looking at pictures),, perhaps the rest is better left up to the pro you hired?

Dave

Steamhead (in transit)

I now think you have room

above the steam main for this:

Since the "mystery pipe" has a tee where it drops to go under the steam main, come out of the top of that tee with a 1/2" black pipe and elbow it horizontally over top of the steam main. Then elbow down again, replace the Illinois trap with a "straightway" (horizontal) trap such as a Barnes & Jones #122S going right into the tee in the main dry return, and tee the upper (air) and lower (water) lines from the mystery pipe into the straightway trap inlet.

If we find the trap is not needed, do the same thing but without the trap. This is why we need to know what that mystery pipe is.

The air will follow the upper pipe and the water will take the lower one. Both will discharge into the dry return main, thru the trap if needed.

This is the same basic technique as looping a steam main over/under a beam.

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TonyBal_2

cool fix

Wow! thanks so much.
that would be a very cool fix.

I was looking at some expensive demo work to have to run the pipe 20 feet.

Thanks again Frank and Gerry, Glen, Dave, Paul, Mad Dog, Jim, Jammie, Nicholas Bonham-Carter, DH, et al.

Just got 1935 Dunham Handbook #514 in mail today...

I'll let you guys rest for a while.

Best Regards,

GN Homeowner

Unknown

Vaporstat L408J

The 1009`s scale is only in oz. It has a SPDT switch to start the burner on pressure drop.
The 1017`s scale is only in psi. It also has a SPDT switch to start the burner on pressure drop.
The 1025`s scale is also in oz, but the SP switch only makes on pressure rise.
The 1033`s scale is in psi, and the SP switch only makes on pressure rise.

As your system is obviously vapor, the one you would want is the L408J1009.
Hope this helps. :-)

Dave