water to water geo, no tax credit?

AckGX

Singh

ClimateMaster has the best info in general about Geo tax credits - http://www.climatemaster.com/index/tax-information

Terry Larsell

water to water geo, no tax credit?

Just took a three day geo ground loop class and received my fusion card. I was surprised to learn that no water to water units are energy star rated and therefore do not qualify for the new tax credit. Is this true?

What I heard was it takes 2 or more years to test and the water to water doesn't sell enough units to make it worth their while. I was the only radiant guy in the class and nobody seemed to be as concerned about this bit of news as I was.

Terry

Mars_3

Terry Im trying to get this straight as well.

I have some info that was fowarded to me that may be of pertinance. If you look at the IRS notice 2006-26 Section-5 you will see that it looks like it is included. Now I do not have confermation on this but it was included in an information packet that I recieved. This is one of many challenges, as far as figuring out what is going to get the tax credit and what is not. Sincerley Mars

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_12

closed loop only

I went through the DEP's class to attain "trained" statys for PA's energy bill program & next head for additional classes to become a PA DEP certified energy auditor. Lois says if I keep getting trained via classes, I might one day actually know something!

Closed loop geo systems are eligible for a full Federal tax credit of 30% of the installed cost - retroactive to installations from 1/1/09 and good until end of Dec 2010. State incentives may be available too.

eluv8

water to water tax credit

The way I understand it as of yet ARI does not have a testing procedure for a water to water Geothermal unit in place. Without having a standard to test to it makes it difficult to give certification. AS for the rebates when you read the print it says you must meet the requirements not necessarily be certified. So in theory you have an air coil on the water to water and you now theoretically qualify.

troy_8

W-W geo

I've been told by my manufacturer that they do not qualify. They suggest using a combo unit that will do both air and radiant. My current job has three high velocity systems for the air side. I don't think the owner will appreciate the loss of the rebate. 30% is essential to roi. How will we sell geo radiant with no rebate.

singh

heard this also

but could not find any wording on this online. Not even at the dsireusa.org website.

Any one have a government link that explains what equipment is covered and what is not.

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AckGX

Tax Credit Info

Singh

ClimateMaster has the best info in general about Geo tax credits - Here

http://www.climatemaster.com/index/tax-information

As far as I know, the problem is the unit must be EnergyStar compliant and they have no guidelines currently for straight water to water units. (ISO) Test Standard 13256-1 cited in the criteria for compliance is for water to air units. The current EnergyStar requirements are - Here

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/product_specs/eligibility/geo_heat_pump_elig.pdf

There is ISO standard 13256-2 for water to water units but this is not included at EnergyStar YET !!?
That is a shame.

eluv8

W W geo tax credits

Residential requirements... http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F&State=federal&currentpageid=1&ee=1&re=1

Commercial Requirements...http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=US02F&State=federal&currentpageid=1&ee=1&re=1

As for the residential requirements it specificly states Geothermal heat pumps must meet federal Energy Star requirements. So couldnt that be read water to water equipment powering a fan coil. Why not qualify at this point as the equipment would then meet the requiremnts of energy star at this time. Am I missing something.

Has anyone tried to qualify their equipment this way, or been successful at obtaining the rebates with water to water and a fan coil.

Mark Eatherton

BOoOoOoOoOoOogus boogaboo...

I filled out one of these forms in the lat few years. It pertained to the COP and EER "capabilities" of the equipment, which I assume meant to check the manuacturer's literature. At that point in time, there was no reference to any standard, only COP's and EER's.

In reality, you can have the best equipment in the world installed, but connected to a short loop, and operating with a COP close to that of strip resistance heating system... All the manufacturers literature in the world isn't going to help that scenario.


I just can't see some beady eyed IRS inspector showing up at your house to perform a heat pump inspection...

They (Gubenrmint) MIGHT get their act together some day, and require that the installation be done by a competent (IGSHPA) certified installer. In the mean time, anyone with a digging machine is considered a pro that's good to go...

The nightmare stories are just beginning to surface...Reminds me of the debacles we saw in the late 70's on solar. Every former door to door vacuum cleaner salesman became a "solar expert" over night. Freaking amazing...

ME

singh

IGSHPA

Mark,

I went down to Oklahoma a few years back to get IGSHPA certified. I agree the cert. should be a requirement also, but it does not necessarily prove competence.
For one thing , during my visit to OK almost no in depth training involved water to water or radiant/geo installs. As matter of fact , the most we got was about 1 hour on the last day from Dr.Bose explaining the details of his own home radiant/geo install.

Another thought, how would W-W heat pumps supplemented by a back up source like a boiler figure into the tax credits. Seems like that setup is counter productive.

And should'nt a retrofit require a energy audit, blower door test be performed first, come to think of it, that should done on any system to qualify for tax credits.

They are a joke.

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Mark Eatherton

NO certification is a guarantee of competency...

but it is a step in the right direction.

I've seen licensed master plumbers that shouldn't be allowed to touch ANYTHING, but nonetheless, they are licensed, and certified.

And yes, I agree, the home should be subject to an energy audit, itemizing recommended conservation efforts, along with proof of conservation efforts done, and a post installation audit showing the net results of the conservation effort. The only problem there is, again, a lack of control over who is doing the audit.

If you have a sieve to begin with, it doesn't matter what your energy source is, if you don't do something to plug all the holes, its still a sieve, its just using a much more expense heat source...

PS, I hope you expressed your concerns to OK State about the extent of their training. If they can't get it right, how are the trainers in the filed going to get it right? I think there needs to be two courses. One for ground to air, and one for ground to hydronic radiant.


ME

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

results

The legislator who wrote PA's alt energy bill is one of our customers. We've been trying to find a mutual date when we can sit down to go over some ideas on how to fix that issue. One that intrigued him was my suggestion the contractors' installed systems be benchmarked with before & after energy usage and utility bills. The contractors shorting the geo side will rise to the surface. What to do with them? Three strikes & you're out of the running for participation with PA's program/incentives until the contractor attends training and passes a test. Pull another three flubbed system installs & get permanently banned. PA's new Attorneys General contractor licensing can be brought to bear to prosecute fraudulent installs & six of them would give them reason to go after the bum.

Time - it all takes time.

Unknown

Reply to my email from Climatemaster


------ Forwarded Message
From: Scott Stevens
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:22:16 -0500
To: Bridgette Oliver
Subject: RE: water to water tax credit

It is true. Geothermal heat pumps must meet EPA Energy Star program requirements to be eligible for the Federal Tax credit. Energy Star program only recognizes units rated in accordance with ARI/ISO 13256-1 operating conditions which are for water to air products. Water to water units are not included in Energy Star thus they are not eligible.