Thermal Images - 3 Radiators

hot_rod

Radiator Ranger

Your thoughts?

Hi All -

In the last few weeks I conducted a thermal survey of our facilities using a thermal imaging camera. I want onw of my own now but that won't likely happen for a long time. For the survey I focused on electrical componants (transformers, generators etc), building envelopes and distribution piping (including some radiators). I've only recently sorted through the 160+ images and three are attached below.

Apparently there was a debate at the facility years ago about the best way to install these creatures - I'm here to share the results. We had a good approach for a steam system but this is NOT a steam system..!

Attached are 3 thermal images of radiators. The sadrad.jpg was probably installed 20+ years ago and is direct copper to cast i.e. copper piping that enters at the bottom of the unit and leaves from the opposit side at the top.

3/4Rad.jpg is plumbed the same way but probably installed later.

The third picture happyrad.jpg is one I installed this winter - bottom to bottom, cast to black steel then to oxygen barrier PEX then to the copper distrbution piping after several feet. The jury is still out on this latest method but I've no doubt about the outcome over time - it'll remain happy and HOT!

I've got my own opinion on my question but am interested to hear yours.

How important is it to replace the Sad and 3/4.jpg units (and others like them) for the overall health of the system? The buildings are warm enough - we're not getting heat complaints, units down the line are receiving sufficient heat etc.


Thanks,

Gwen Healy -Radiator Ranger

Jim Bennett

That is....

really incredible. I had no idea that there could be such a dramatic difference.

Jim

Dave Stroman

That is pretty cool. I convert steam radiators to hot water all the time and we often reuse the top port. There does really seem to be a difference.

Dave Stroman

tim smith

We always refit radiator for bottom in bottom out taps. If any

thing just looks better but also seems to flow much more evenly by pics. Cool pics Gwen. Thanks, Tim
Gwen, I had just met with Fluke rep and one thing he said is if the pipes are copper or painted going into radiator, make sure and paint with dark paint, the imager picks up temp much better.

Unknown

that's awesome

And I'm with Dave S regarding making the connection with the trv on top connection. However, wondering what's the time elapsed when the hot water started entering into the cold radiator becomes totally hot? Certianly the cold "spot" can't stay there during the cycle. From this learning curve, perhaps the trv companies should make a "reversed flow" valves so the top will be the return connection!
Thanks Gwen for doing this!

Unknown

Gwen, I saw some of your previous postings where you had photos of a cut open section of radiator which was totally clogged with rust. Do you think the two older radiators are in this internally rusted and clogged condition? This might explain the lack of uniform flow, rather than the placement of the inlet and outlet piping.

Mark Eatherton

Velly Intellestynk

I'm kinda with Mike K. I suspect you have some clogged tubes there on the first two rad's.

Next, you need to get one of the small Rigid Snake Cams and send it in to see if in deed you have blockages there.

Cool pictorials tho.. THanks for sharing.

ME

GwenHealy

Clogged radiators

Hi all - thanks for your comments!

Regarding the previous posts of clogged units - I am certain the pictured sad and 3/4 radiators have clogged fins - water will go where it can.

These photos show what I've been imagining - when the system is hot I can feel the difference across the radiator and that is the first method I used for determining the performance of the unit. I essentially determined how 'efficient' or productive the radiator was by feeling the temp. drop across the unit and I'd say it's 10% functional, 40% functional etc. I feel for heat at the top and bottom at each end of the unit and across the middle too - that is how I determined what units to replace last year.

Once I started pulling radiators I got the idea to cut some open to see what was going on inside to create the cooler zones. At some point I realized tapping on the units is another way to 'see' this. If the radiator rings, it's clear when it clunks, it's got clogging. I have a metal thing attached to my key ring and I tap along every fin on both sides of the unit.

In this system the radiator heats up really fast once there is flow - even at the end of the line. For the thermal survey we turned on both geo pumps and opened all TRV's all the way several hours before the images were taken. There was plenty of time for hot water to move through the unit. On the sadrad.jpg I'm confident the mid sections are hot from metal to metal conduction not from water to metal (the temperature difference across the unit and the outgoing temps are to large for it to be water conduction).

I trust that when these units were 'new' to this system they got hot in all zones evenly - the flow reduction happened slowly over time. The bottom to bottom plumbing won't ultimately solve our air problems and neither does replacing the radiators but the process of studying what I'm finding (observing, noting, reflecting etc.) is helping.

How important is it to replace those clogged units though - for overall system performance?

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

GwenHealy

Clogged radiators

Hi all - thanks for your comments!

Regarding the previous posts of clogged units - I am certain the pictured sad and 3/4 radiators have clogged fins - water will go where it can.

These photos show what I've been imagining - when the system is hot I can feel the difference across the radiator and that is the first method I used for determining the performance of the unit. I essentially determined how 'efficient' or productive the radiator was by feeling the temp. drop across the unit and I'd say it's 10% functional, 40% functional etc. I feel for heat at the top and bottom at each end of the unit and across the middle too - that is how I determined what units to replace last year.

Once I started pulling radiators I got the idea to cut some open to see what was going on inside to create the cooler zones. At some point I realized tapping on the units is another way to 'see' this. If the radiator rings, it's clear when it clunks, it's got clogging. I have a metal thing attached to my key ring and I tap along every fin on both sides of the unit.

In this system the radiator heats up really fast once there is flow - even at the end of the line. For the thermal survey we turned on both geo pumps and opened all TRV's all the way several hours before the images were taken. There was plenty of time for hot water to move through the unit. On the sadrad.jpg I'm confident the mid sections are hot from metal to metal conduction not from water to metal (the temperature difference across the unit and the outgoing temps are to large for it to be water conduction).

I trust that when these units were 'new' to this system they got hot in all zones evenly - the flow reduction happened slowly over time. The bottom to bottom plumbing won't ultimately solve our air problems and neither does replacing the radiators but the process of studying what I'm finding (observing, noting, reflecting etc.) is helping.

How important is it to replace those clogged units though - for overall system performance?

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

GwenHealy

Clogged radiators

Hi all - thanks for your comments!

Regarding the previous posts of clogged units - I am certain the pictured sad and 3/4 radiators have clogged fins - water will go where it can.

These photos show what I've been imagining - when the system is hot I can feel the difference across the radiator and that is the first method I used for determining the performance of the unit. I essentially determined how 'efficient' or productive the radiator was by feeling the temp. drop across the unit and I'd say it's 10% functional, 40% functional etc. I feel for heat at the top and bottom at each end of the unit and across the middle too - that is how I determined what units to replace last year.

Once I started pulling radiators I got the idea to cut some open to see what was going on inside to create the cooler zones (I can't post those photos until late in the day due to upload limitations of our internet connection). At some point I realized tapping on the units is another way to 'see' this. If the radiator rings, it's clear when it clunks, it's got clogging. I have a metal thing attached to my key ring and I tap along every fin on both sides of the unit.

In this system the radiator heats up really fast once there is flow - even at the end of the line. For the thermal survey we turned on both geo pumps and opened all TRV's all the way several hours before the images were taken. There was plenty of time for hot water to move through the unit. On the sadrad.jpg I'm confident the mid sections are hot from metal to metal conduction not from water to metal (the temperature difference across the unit and the outgoing temps are to large for it to be water conduction).

I trust that when these units were 'new' to this system they got hot in all zones evenly - the flow reduction happened slowly over time. The bottom to bottom plumbing won't ultimately solve our air problems and neither does replacing the radiators but the process of studying the system i.e. (observing, noting, reflecting etc.) is helping.

How important is it to replace those clogged units though - for overall system performance?

Gwen Healy - Radiator Ranger

Keith MacBain

Blockages in radiators

I was interested to read your postings, and noted the problems with the radiators (cast iron?).
I am in England. We generally use pressed steel radiators, and problems with choked radiators are very common.
So common, in fact, that the company I work for has sold thousands of purpose built hydronic heating system flushing pumps over the years.
And yes, I want one of those thermal imaging cameras also - just need to wait until the price drops a bit lower.
Regards to all,
Keith MacBain, UK.

Mark Eatherton

How important is it to replace those clogged units though...

Well... If it works keeping the room at a reasonable temperature, then I guess it is fair to say that whatever is left is enough.

Provided that the products of corrosion don't break off and go some place else and cause other problems, I guess you're OK. I think the key is STOPPING any additional corrosion from building up, because reversing it could be disasterous to other tight flow passage radiators and pumps in the system.

If WYSIWYG, and it works, why worry...

ME

Unknown

My Thoughts --- TRVs working...

Assumption: All rads in a single system and not all have TRVs and photos taken near the same time but during a HEATING phase (e.g. increasing space temp) as opposed to the MAINTENANCE phase. Is this correct?

Referring to Hot Rod's triple image:

1) Top radiator has TRV on a highly (windward?) exposed exterior wall in the naturally coolest area during the daytime. TRV is wide open with extremely low head loss (e.g. flow maximized in the system).

2) Middle radiator has TRV. What might look like a blockage is I believe the result of cold air falling below a less-than-super window combined with head loss greater than 1) above. Even though "wide open" the TRV is possibly reacting to the solar gain through the window while the leaking cold air falls to the floor.

3) A non-TRV'd radiator with excessive flow velocity.

Dave Stroman

I do a lot of work with cast iron radiators and have never seen any tubes clogged up. Did you say that you posted photos showing that? Was this the system that was taking on a lot of fresh water?

Dave Stroman

Unknown

Dave, these radiators are part of an extensive geothermal system with many leaks and a lot of fresh makeup water.
This is the photo previously posted:

Clogged radiator

This is the posting that the photo came from which pretty much explains it all:

Breitenbush

GwenHealy

The Camera Used

Hi -

I guess I should say the camera used was a ThermaCAM 640 by FLIR. It looked more like a camcorder than a camera. I've not used a thermal imaging camera before but this one was sensitive, had the ability to read a huge temperature range and the pictures turned out pretty good.

RR

GwenHealy

That's better - thanks Hotrod!

GwenHealy

Snake Cams?

Hi Mark,

I don't know what a Rigid Snake cam is - a camera I could rent from somewhere? How big are the lenses etc. on these cameras?

I was out walking the other day thinking about the SadRad and comments here on the Wall and had an idea which I find both intriguing and disturbing.

If I can get a replacement radiator prepped by the time we have another closed period (we close the facility from time to time for various reasons), I might cut the SadRad open while it's running (through one of those 'cool' fins) to see how much water is flowing (I think no water is flowing).

There are probably several reasons why this is a bad idea - not to mention it seems wasteful. I think of the system as a living system so cutting it open seems doubly harsh but the experiment intrigues me and I want to replace the unit anyway. I'll keep y'all posted on this idea.

Gwen

Mark Eatherton

Rigid SeeSnake..

Relatively inexpensive tool. Camera head is about 1/2" in diameter.

http://www.ridgid.com/seesnakemicro/

I don't think you could do much of a right turn up into the individual sections, but it depends.

ME

GwenHealy

Purpose Built flushing pumps?

Hi Keith,

Do you have any picture of these purpose built flushing pumps in service? I sometimes think about getting a big tank and setting up a circ. pump system for flushing but haven't gotten past the thinking stage.

Yes, the radiators pictured are cast iron.

I have one pressed steel radiator but haven't considered installing it yet - what do you like about them? What do you attribute the radiator choking to? Does a lot of air get into the systems there?

For a while we had a practice of pulling rads. (wen were servicing buildings) and flushing them with a 2.5" fire hose that had a copper tube attached - the tube had small holes drilled in it and we'd aim the holes up the fins to try to flush the crud out. I'm not convinced this worked so well - (below is a picture of a radiator that was flushed in this manner).

The person who owned the camera said it was really expensive - I'm glad to have had the opportunity to hire him for a day.

The picture shows 2 units - the further unit is at the beginning of the line so it is hotter. What I see are cold are clogged with sediment. When we flushed them, it was a long process and we only stopped when the water ran clean.

Can you tell me more about your radiator flushing process?

Cheers - Gwen

GwenHealy

Interesting ideas

Hi Mtman,

The 3 radiators pictured are all installed in a facility that has 130 buildings and 100's of radiators. We have geothermal wells and a lot of hot water. The system was installed in the early 1980s.

The pictured radiators are each installed in cabins built in the 1930's using stick frame construction. Each building is less than 200 SF (some have an added bathroom that is about 80SF). Each bldg. has blown in cellulose insulation in the wall cavities and 12+" of insulation in the ceiling. The cabins are about 6-9 city blocks from the distribution house (geo house) and there is over 700' of elevation gain (from the bottom of the well bore to the furthest radiator on the side of the river these pictures were taken).

The buildings and system were in the maintenance phase. The building I live in is as described above 178SF (I'm closer to the geo house, on the other side of the river, 200' lower and about 6 blocks closer). When I turn my TRV to 6, the building heats up in less than 15 minutes even with the window open on the indy side).

Yes, all rads. in a single system, TRV's all working (the radiator pictured on the bottom is 4' away from another radiator that has a TRV). The photos were taken around the same time of day (in the AM) - the outdoor temp. was 30.8F, it was not a windy day but it was sunny.

I'm curious about your thoughts on the middle radiator. How much cold air flow (and what temperature of air (or what CFM) would it take) to create a nearly 80F temp. diff. between the top and the bottom of the unit but only on one side?

I probably won't do anything with / to the middle radiator but the bottom one will get replaced this year. I'll post cutaways of that unit so we can all follow the experiment.

Till Next,
Gwen

GwenHealy

SeeSnake

Hey, I've ever seen one of those - I'll remember this tool. It's highly unlikely we'd buy one (It seems expensive to me) but I can imagine using this kind of tool on other systems here like the septic system.

Thanks for the idea!

Gwen

GwenHealy

The system

Hi -

Thanks for posting that picture Mike. The picture above titled clogged radiator is a cutaway of a radiator I pulled from this system last summer.

We add 'domestic' water as makeup - domestic water means surface water from the river (treated for drinking water through a multi stage filtering system with chlorine added at the end of the cycle). We don't have air bleeders at the well heads and the system does have leaks.

Do you work with radiators from steam or water systems?

Gwen